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Question from a non-pagan

Gentoo

The Feisty Penguin
Thanks Gentoo, you answered the questions well!! :) wow going from catholic to a witch... may I ask what converted you?

I couldn't live the lie anymore. That is, Catholicism isn't a lie, but it was a lie for me to say I believed in it when I didn't. My journey wasn't straight Catholic -> Pagan, but more like Catholic -> Agnostic for 3 years -> Pagan.

I can see what you mean with the saints, I will be honest and say I am not sure about it... :) The saints have the power to grant things (eg a lost item to be found) of which you pray to them for, which some people would say that only God should be able to do.
That depends on how you look at it honestly. If one takes that viewpoint, then yes, it seems that Catholics do worship them. But to Catholics, they are praying to saints to help them, not grant them anything. It may not seem like that big of a difference, but the devil is in the details, as they say.
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
The saints have the power to grant things (eg a lost item to be found) of which you pray to them for, which some people would say that only God should be able to do. Thanks for the info anyway! :)
This is probably not the place for questions about the saints but since you asked....
The saints are closer to God since they are in heaven with God. Their ability to help us here on earth comes from their close relationship to God, their 'power', if you will, comes form the fact that they have Gods ear, in a sense God listens to them and grants their requests. But anyway this is not really the place for a discussion on the saints.
 

Makhsihed

Member
Did early pagans or do you see your gods as being gods in the strict sense or are they more like angels, spirits, etc? Did early pagans or do you believe in any kind of unifying force or 'one God to rule them all' or something along those lines?

It depends on which group / culture you're talking about.

Remember, "pagan" can mean anyone who follows a non-Abrahamic religion (something other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam). More specifically, it usually refers to someone who follows a revived form of a dead religion (such as Hellenic reconstructionists, or Asatruar), or a modified form of an extant non-Abrahamic religion (such as Vedic [Hindu] pagans, people who perhaps follow neo-pagan practices but worship Hindu gods or incorporate Hindu practices, but wouldn't technically be Hindu - traditional Hindus generally object to being called pagan), or an earth-based religion that may be more modern (such as Wicca). (Ask 10 pagans the definition of paganism, get 10 different answers. It's hard to define.)

No matter what your definition, that's a wide range of cultures. And if you're talking "early pagans" as in "early non-Abrahamic peoples", that spans the entire globe. The ancient Norse had very different views from the ancient Greeks, who had different views from the ancient Sumerians or Celts or Mayans. A modern pagan might follow any of those cultures/pantheons, or something else entirely. All cultures did not have the same view of deity.

With that covered, I can speak on what I know, which is Kemet (Egypt). :)

Kemetic belief is of "the One and the Many"; it's a form of monism or monolatry (depending on your favorite definition for each word). There is an infinite, vast All that Kemetics call Netjer; this is so vast that mortal minds cannot comprehend it. Netjer is broken down into the Netjeru, more personified pieces that are easier to interact with and, as a result of being more finite, are also able to focus on and care about humanity (rather than being concerned with the EVERYTHING that is Netjer and such).

It's like God has multiple personalities. Each Netjeru is a full, distinct, individual being with His/Her own desires, plans, thoughts, and actions; but each Netjeru is also part of that greater whole.

Or, to use a different analogy (though I prefer the multiple personalities one, myself), Netjer is like a business corporation, and the Netjeru are the different employees and owners and such of that corporation. (That's a more hard-polytheistic view; I take a slightly more soft-polytheistic view.)

It's like the concept of the Trinity in Christianity. God is one in three and three in one; three separate beings who are at the same time one singular being. With Netjer, it's one in many and many in one; the Trinity-concept expanded.

Then there's also the concept egyptologists call "fissioning" and "fusing"... different Netjeru can "fission", or split apart into even more specific Names (such as Heru [Horus] fissioning into His aspects of Heru-Wer [Horus the Elder], Heru-sa-Aset [Horus son of Isis], and Heraukhty [Heru at Dawn]). Different Netjeru can also "fuse", or join with other Netjeru to become a different being (such as Bast and Mut fusing to become Bast-Mut, or Ra and Amun fusing into Amun-Ra, or even Heraukhty and Ra fusing into Ra-Heraukhty).

The Netjeru are fluid beings. Each one is very distinct and individual, to be sure; but in some ways it's like having a large supply of clay. That clay can be shaped on its own, or can be broken into pieces and then each piece shaped as well, and then two pieces can be put together and shaped into something else.

Despite all this, the Netjeru are still individual entities. I know I've said this several times, but it's hard to grasp sometimes because the Netjeru are part of the greater whole, so some people go the neopagan Wiccan route of "Oh, Aset (Isis) and Yinepu (Anubis) are just part of the larger whole, so they're interchangeable, they're like the same being! So I can behave with Aset as casually and informally as I behave with Yinepu and it'll be just fine!" Except that Aset is well-known for Her strictness involving respect and formality and purity, while Yinepu is much more easy-going, and to treat Aset like Yinepu will probably get you the cosmic slap across the head.

Perhaps it'd be better to describe it like an ecosystem. In a (healthy) ecosystem, you've got a balance of predators and prey, plants and insects, water and air and earth. All of these things are made up of atoms, of the building blocks of matter. All of these things are unique and sometimes even in apparent conflict with each other, as the herbivores eat the plants and the carnivores eat the herbivores, but in that conflict is balance and harmony, however savage that harmony may sometimes be. In the end, all the living organisms end up as carbon and nutrients, so they all become the same sort of thing. But you wouldn't treat a wolf or a wasp the same way you'd treat a plant or a rabbit. All of these pieces, these niches of the ecosystem, make up this living dynamic entity we call "ecosystem". Netjer's kind of the same way.

(I'm sorry this was so long. It's just that it's an odd concept that's sometimes hard to understand and I want to make sure it's understandable. ^^" )
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
It depends on which group / culture you're talking about.

Remember, "pagan" can mean anyone who follows a non-Abrahamic religion (something other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam).

I realized this shortly after beginning this discussion, I meant no offense by my generalization but it does allow for anyone to answer for their own particular understanding:D


(I'm sorry this was so long. It's just that it's an odd concept that's sometimes hard to understand and I want to make sure it's understandable. ^^" )

Thank you for taking the time to instruct my ignorance on the subject, your answer was well written and easy for me to understand. I think this was the kind of concept that I had in mind when I originally asked the question.

I have learned a great deal about the spirituality of others in my short time on RF. The walls of my own prejudices surrounding the beliefs of others have come crashing down in my short time here. Thank you all for helping me to see that pagans are people too!
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
I have learned a great deal about the spirituality of others in my short time on RF. The walls of my own prejudices surrounding the beliefs of others have come crashing down in my short time here. Thank you all for helping me to see that pagans are people too!

Many of us have had that experience- I know I have! Thank you for being willing to pursue something that you seek understanding on! :hug:
 

CelticRavenwolf

She Who is Lost
A question to Runlikethewind (interesting your catholic) and the rest of you. Isnt catholicsm (cant spell apolgise if its wrong) similar to paganism then? as in I know you dont worship "Gods" as such but you have saints which are there to pray for different things such as health, lost things etc etc (please correct me if I am wrong)

Grawr! I wrote a huge reply to this first thing this morning, and the RF ATE it!!! I didn't have time to retype it, and even though the question has been sort of answered I'm going to try to explain it better, anyway.

I too, am a former Catholic, and I must say that I can see where you could equate praying to Saints with the Lesser deities of pagan pantheons. A lot of other sects of Christianity see it that way too, which is why very few besides Catholics acknowledge Saints.

The difference comes from the fact that Saints aren't worshipped. Yes, they are prayed to, but it's more like asking for help from someone in their speciality. Because Saints are highly esteemed people who are now in heaven - people who are shining examples of what the church holds dear, people who gave the ultimate sacrifice for their faith - they're somewhat closer to God, and when someone prays to the Saints they are essentially asking them to petition God on their behalf. Throwing a little more weight behind your prayers, so to speak.

To summarize - Saints are remembered and honoured as humans who exemplify the faith and reisde in heaven, but are not worshipped.
 

BFD_Zayl

Well-Known Member
Interesting thread :) I have a friend who is pagan though have never really fully understood the belief myself!

A question to Runlikethewind (interesting your catholic) and the rest of you. Isnt catholicsm (cant spell apolgise if its wrong) similar to paganism then? as in I know you dont worship "Gods" as such but you have saints which are there to pray for different things such as health, lost things etc etc (please correct me if I am wrong)

Question for pagans - again this is complete ignorance! but is there any form of your faith/belief/things you do which do take a "witchlike" form - obviously I am not talking about riding broom sticks with point hats here! :) though that would be pretty cool! For example my friend says that she does practise spells.

Many Thanks
:)
yes, spells are practiced, and I am no witch, obviously. if your friend does spells then she indeed might do spells.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Question for pagans - again this is complete ignorance! but is there any form of your faith/belief/things you do which do take a "witchlike" form - obviously I am not talking about riding broom sticks with point hats here! :) though that would be pretty cool! For example my friend says that she does practise spells.

What's interesting about spells is that they can be defined broadly enough to encompass things like prayer, ceremony, and any ritual. Baptism, for example, can be taken as a water purification spell performed by many pagans.

Prayers can be viewed as a meditative chant designed to communicate with the divine in the same way that many chants are used by pagans in order to connect with the divine/spiritual world.
 

Shayi

New Member
Perhaps it'd be better to describe it like an ecosystem. In a (healthy) ecosystem, you've got a balance of predators and prey, plants and insects, water and air and earth. All of these things are made up of atoms, of the building blocks of matter. All of these things are unique and sometimes even in apparent conflict with each other, as the herbivores eat the plants and the carnivores eat the herbivores, but in that conflict is balance and harmony, however savage that harmony may sometimes be. In the end, all the living organisms end up as carbon and nutrients, so they all become the same sort of thing. But you wouldn't treat a wolf or a wasp the same way you'd treat a plant or a rabbit. All of these pieces, these niches of the ecosystem, make up this living dynamic entity we call "ecosystem". Netjer's kind of the same way.

(I'm sorry this was so long. It's just that it's an odd concept that's sometimes hard to understand and I want to make sure it's understandable. ^^" )

See I was about to post up an explanation of Netjer and the Netjeru - but I'm glad you got there first, because this is probably the best explanation that I have ever seen :) And it does make something infinitely strange and confusing make absolutely perfect sense.

Dua Netjer!
 
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