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Question on Religious Background

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
My point is that every single Christian religion bases their beliefs in the Bible, as far as I am aware.
No. Most Christians don't base their faith of the Bible. Only sola scripturalists do that. Most of us base our faith on the teaching of the Church, which includes but is not limited to, the Bible. Many other aspects of Holy Tradition are important, not just that subset of it that the Church chose to collect as the NT. Your 'every single Christian' is really only 'the majority of Protestants' (and some others who seem Protestant to the rest of us but prefer not to be labeled as such).

James
 

MBones

Member
Explain this one to me. The teaching of the church. Is it not derived from the Bible? Most churches are and the Catholic church is, I know that one. How can you have a church without biblical teachings?
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Explain this one to me. The teaching of the church. Is it not derived from the Bible? Most churches are and the Catholic church is, I know that one. How can you have a church without biblical teachings?

No, the Bible is part of the written teaching of the Church. The Church existed just fine with no Bible for several centuries. It's quite possible to have the Church without the Bible but not the reverse. The Church isn't founded on the Bible but on the Incarnate Christ. On the contrary the Church wrote and collected the Bible.

What I was saying is that the churches that pre-exist the Reformation (including most definitely the RCC) are not based on the Bible but rather that the Bible makes up for them the most important part of the written Tradition. In other words, the Bible is a part of the teaching of the Church and the teaching of the Church pre-exists it rather than being derived from it.

You can't have a Church that doesn't contain the teachings that are found in the Bible, but there is much that is, and always was, taught by the Church that is not found directly in the Bible, though non-Scriptural Holy Tradition does not contradict the Bible, as that is considered normative. That's why it's called the canon. A canon is literally a measuring stick and the Bible is the stick against which the rest of the Tradition is measured. Does that make sense? I can elaborate further if necessary. Most Christians (by far the majority) do not base their faith on sola scriptura (the Bible alone).

James
 

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
My point is that every single Christian religion bases their beliefs in the Bible, as far as I am aware. They all believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that he died for our sins. The differences are based on how the bible is interpreted, and so forth.

So, what make you decide to become a Christian over becoming a Protestant, or a follower of the Latter Day Saints, and so forth?
If someone asks me what religion I am I just say "Christian", but I fall in line with what would be considered Baptist. One God,divinity of Jesus Christ,Eternal life=recieved at salvation/can't be lost, No works,self righteousness/salvation. And as far as not being Catholic although their are some all right Catholics here I differ on- Pray to be only directly to God (as opposed to any saints), communion not the literal body and blood (only done in memory), no purgutory (everything paid on the cross), most extensive hierarchy=bishops and deacons (as opposed to the pope and cardinals that are over several churches), Anyone can marry (Peter had a wife and is considered the first Pope)/no ban on marriage for church leaders, or for nuns or monks.
 

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
No, the Bible is part of the written teaching of the Church. The Church existed just fine with no Bible for several centuries. It's quite possible to have the Church without the Bible but not the reverse. The Church isn't founded on the Bible but on the Incarnate Christ. On the contrary the Church wrote and collected the Bible.

What I was saying is that the churches that pre-exist the Reformation (including most definitely the RCC) are not based on the Bible but rather that the Bible makes up for them the most important part of the written Tradition. In other words, the Bible is a part of the teaching of the Church and the teaching of the Church pre-exists it rather than being derived from it.

You can't have a Church that doesn't contain the teachings that are found in the Bible, but there is much that is, and always was, taught by the Church that is not found directly in the Bible, though non-Scriptural Holy Tradition does not contradict the Bible, as that is considered normative. That's why it's called the canon. A canon is literally a measuring stick and the Bible is the stick against which the rest of the Tradition is measured. Does that make sense? I can elaborate further if necessary. Most Christians (by far the majority) do not base their faith on sola scriptura (the Bible alone).

James
Good post, it's the reality behind the words not the physical ink an paper. God will not hesitate to be with someone who has only an old copy of the gospel of John in favour of someone who has bookcase full of old and new testaments. God himself is the only truth and the Bible is the truth about the truth.
 

may

Well-Known Member
How can you have a church without biblical teachings?
christendom is full of them , they have cast of pure bible teachings and instead their beliefs are based on manmade doctrines and traditions , and then they twist the bible to try to fit there beliefs ............ the TRINITY is just one of those beliefs but the bible does not teach the trinity, and now many have been led astray
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Pray to be only directly to God (as opposed to any saints),
Roman Catholics don't pray to saints any more than we do (and we don't, it's a misconception of Protestants who don't understand the practice. They, like we, do not believe that the saints are dead but alive in God and do, obviously, believe that they are righteous and that their prayes avail much as the Bible says. 'Praying to' the saints is nothing more than shorthand for 'Asking the saints to pray for us'.
communion not the literal body and blood (only done in memory)
And yet every Church Father who wrote on the subject believed that Christ was truly present in the Eucharist and the Greek word anamnesis means much, much more than a memorial. Nobody doubted the Real Presence prior to the Refiormation, so how do you explain the attitudes of the first millennium and half of Christians if your view is right?
no purgutory (everything paid on the cross)
Here I agree, but Purgatory is a late development of RC belief (rather like the Protestant belief in a merely symbolic Eucharist is late development).
most extensive hierarchy=bishops and deacons (as opposed to the pope and cardinals that are over several churches)
Well, strictly speaking, that's all the RCs have - cardinals and the Pope are just bishops with particular roles. I don't agree with RC ecclesiology (because they have largely abandoned the conciliar nature of Church government) but this charge is unsustainable. For example, we have bishops called Metropolitan, Archbishop, Patriarch, even a Pope in Alexandria and yet they are all equal. Spiritually speaking they are all bishops and in their Synods they all have one vote, but in terms of organising the Church they all have different roles. A Patriarch is not, however, above a bishop in the way you appear to envisage.
Anyone can marry (Peter had a wife and is considered the first Pope)/no ban on marriage for church leaders, or for nuns or monks.
Well, with priests I agree with you, but you do realise this is just a discipline right? Rome does actually have some married priests, especially in her eastern rites. But as for monks and nuns, there is no ban. People choose to be a monastic knowing that celibacy is part of this and willingly accept it. If, later, they wish to marry they can leave without any consequence. Your characterising it as a ban is equivalent to me saying that I'm banned from being a civil engineer because I chose to be a software developer. I could always ceaseto developer software and go and train in civil engineering if I wanted to, after all. I also find it interesting that you dwell on the fact that Peter was married (prior to being an Apostle - nowhere in the history of the Church was marriage allowed after ordination, only before) whilst failing to mention that Paul chose to be celibate. Given the latter truth, how can you possibly be opposed to monastics who choose to do the same?

James
 

Trassin

Member
Roman Catholics don't pray to saints any more than we do (and we don't, it's a misconception of Protestants who don't understand the practice. They, like we, do not believe that the saints are dead but alive in God and do, obviously, believe that they are righteous and that their prayes avail much as the Bible says. 'Praying to' the saints is nothing more than shorthand for 'Asking the saints to pray for us'.

I agree with what James wrote. I'm only commenting because it always amazes me how often people have this misconception about the Roman Catholic religion. I used to be a Catholic (still am I suppose, just don't believe in the religion any more) and any time I discussed my religion with someone not of Roman Catholic heritage they would have that misconception.
 

Smoke

Done here.
No. Most Christians don't base their faith of the Bible. Only sola scripturalists do that. Most of us base our faith on the teaching of the Church, which includes but is not limited to, the Bible.
It may be improper for the apostate to correct the faithful, but as an Orthodox Christian I would have said that the Orthodox Faith is based on neither the teaching of the Church nor the Bible. Rather, the Church preserves the Faith of the Apostles, and the Bible and the teaching of the Church are expressions of that Faith.

But anyway, if there's any such thing as authentic Christianity, it predates the Bible (in fact, it produced the Bible), and any Christianity that's based on the Bible must be something else. ;)
 

Smoke

Done here.
I'm not a member of any religion. I think of myself as a Quaker, because I admire the Quaker way of life and try to emulate it (with limited success) and because I find value in many Quaker writings. But if I am a Quaker, I'm a solitary one.

If I were to affiliate with any group, it would most likely be a meeting of Friends General Conference, because I consider them the body of American Quakers that's most true to the radical vision of George Fox, and because it's the friendliest of the three major American Friends groups for a gay atheist Quaker.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
It may be improper for the apostate to correct the faithful, but as an Orthodox Christian I would have said that the Orthodox Faith is based on neither the teaching of the Church nor the Bible.
It's highly improper but aas you haven't actually corrected me I'll let it slide;) . I said that most Christian's faith was based on the teaching of the Church, not that the Orthodox Faith is. I probably wasn't clear enough in the way I phrased things, but I was talking of individuals, not churches. Most individuals never knew the Apostles so, therefore, all they can do is trust that the Church preserves their teachings and base their faith on what the Chgurch teaches them.
Rather, the Church preserves the Faith of the Apostles, and the Bible and the teaching of the Church are expressions of that Faith.
And to add the next link in the chain so that we get to the point I was initially trying to make, and the individual believer bases his faith on these expressions of the Faith of the Apostles.
But anyway, if there's any such thing as authentic Christianity, it predates the Bible (in fact, it produced the Bible), and any Christianity that's based on the Bible must be something else. ;)
Of that there is absolutely no doubt.

James
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
I agree with what James wrote. I'm only commenting because it always amazes me how often people have this misconception about the Roman Catholic religion. I used to be a Catholic (still am I suppose, just don't believe in the religion any more) and any time I discussed my religion with someone not of Roman Catholic heritage they would have that misconception.

You'd have been alright discussing it with us or the OOs (well, with regards to 'praying to' saints at any rate). Of course, you don't tend to come across anywhere near as many Orthodox (of either stripe) in the west as you do Protestants. Of course, with us you'd hear different complaints (some of which, I'm sure, would occasionally also be down to misconceptions).

James
 

may

Well-Known Member
Why do you say the trinity is unbiblical?
because it is not a bible teaching , it is a big part of the apostacy that crept into the early congregations , and it has been around so long now that people think that it is true, when it is not a bible teaching at all .i found this online booklet a good read , Should You Believe in the Trinity?
Answers such questions as: What is the Trinity? Does the Bible teach it? Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God and part of the Trinity? What is the holy spirit, and how does it function? Illustrated.
 

may

Well-Known Member
[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]'Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.' —The Encyclopedia Americana[/FONT]​
 

may

Well-Known Member
6_jesus_group.jpg

[FONT=verdana, helvetica, arial, sans serif]Jesus told the Jews: "I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." —John 6:38 Jesus is not God , but he is doing the will of God [/FONT]​
 

Sonic247

Well-Known Member
Roman Catholics don't pray to saints any more than we do (and we don't, it's a misconception of Protestants who don't understand the practice. They, like we, do not believe that the saints are dead but alive in God and do, obviously, believe that they are righteous and that their prayes avail much as the Bible says. 'Praying to' the saints is nothing more than shorthand for 'Asking the saints to pray for us'.
I know that, but what I believe is there is one mediator between God in man, what I mean when I say no prayer to saints is, there is only one person in heaven I talk to and that is God himself. You might suprise me, but in the Bible I can't find an example of any prayer to saints except for Saul's but that doesn't help the case much.
And yet every Church Father who wrote on the subject believed that Christ was truly present in the Eucharist and the Greek word anamnesis means much, much more than a memorial. Nobody doubted the Real Presence prior to the Refiormation, so how do you explain the attitudes of the first millennium and half of Christians if your view is right?
The body of Jesus was broken and his blood shed for us, that happened once and we recieve it by faith. There is no need for his body to be broken every time someone has communion.

Well, strictly speaking, that's all the RCs have - cardinals and the Pope are just bishops with particular roles. I don't agree with RC ecclesiology (because they have largely abandoned the conciliar nature of Church government) but this charge is unsustainable. For example, we have bishops called Metropolitan, Archbishop, Patriarch, even a Pope in Alexandria and yet they are all equal. Spiritually speaking they are all bishops and in their Synods they all have one vote, but in terms of organising the Church they all have different roles. A Patriarch is not, however, above a bishop in the way you appear to envisage.
Maybe but everyone answers to the pope, thats to much power for him. Also if what I heard is true, which it may not be, that the pope is considered the head of the church I would have to disagree with that also, Jesus is the head of the church, if someone's head dies their whole body dies but Christ is alive forever, but besides that the Bible says he is the head of the church.
Well, with priests I agree with you, but you do realise this is just a discipline right? Rome does actually have some married priests, especially in her eastern rites. But as for monks and nuns, there is no ban. People choose to be a monastic knowing that celibacy is part of this and willingly accept it. If, later, they wish to marry they can leave without any consequence. Your characterising it as a ban is equivalent to me saying that I'm banned from being a civil engineer because I chose to be a software developer. I could always ceaseto developer software and go and train in civil engineering if I wanted to, after all. I also find it interesting that you dwell on the fact that Peter was married (prior to being an Apostle - nowhere in the history of the Church was marriage allowed after ordination, only before) whilst failing to mention that Paul chose to be celibate. Given the latter truth, how can you possibly be opposed to monastics who choose to do the same?
All right, point taken, I suppose I only object to the ban on marriage for the priesthood. Just as long as people realize Paul was single by choice not obligation, he plainly said "Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? "
 

TheGreaterGame

Active Member
I would like to ask anyone that belongs to a branch of a particular religion the reason why they belong to that particular religious branch.


Because I tried all the rest and found the best-- I became a Christian. I was a Nominal Roman Catholic, a Nominal Nazerene, a Nominal Mormon, and a convinced agnostic . . . but than I met Jesus . . .praise God.
 
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