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Question, question, question...

gnostic

The Lost One
imagist said:
I went through a rather long agnostic phase before becoming atheist, so hopefully you won't take offense to my commenting despite not being agnostic.

Not at all. You're welcome to express whatever view or experience you wish.

imagist said:
When I was an agnostic I didn't, and I still don't, view it as fence-sitting. If neither side persuades you, the only honest choice is to admit you don't know. Choosing a side without being persuaded is dishonest - there's nothing fence-sitting about it.

willamena said:
Neither
smile.gif
As an agnostic, I am very sure of where I stand in regards to things.

I don't view agnostic stance as being fence-sitter too.

A choice is made, hence there is a stance or road taken, despite being in neither the theist camp nor atheist camp. I have definite view on religion and non-religion.

Even if you do take a middle ground, it is still a choice and a viewpoint, which I don't think should be discounted.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I don't view agnostic stance as being fence-sitter too.

A choice is made, hence there is a stance or road taken, despite being in neither the theist camp nor atheist camp. I have definite view on religion and non-religion.

Even if you do take a middle ground, it is still a choice and a viewpoint, which I don't think should be discounted.
Right. The way I see agnosticism, a decision has been made, and with it comes an understanding; and because of that understanding, "I don't know" is the only appropriate answer to questions like "Does 'God' exist?"
 

gilnv

gilnv
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Agnosticism seems like honesty so it ain't like sitting on a fence for me. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Although, sometimes it feels like I'm standing with a person on my right saying something that can't be proved and some other person on my left saying the opposite without any proof. It's kind of lonely sometimes but I realize most people don't want to think much about it and at the same time they are quite scared of death and other questions of existence. [/FONT]
Most people I know are theists and a few are atheists. I'm not sure if I know any agnostics but I've only asked about half the people I meet if they believe in God.
Best Wishes, Gil
 

jrbogie

Member
Does being an agnostic feel like you're sitting on a fence? Or that you're trying juggle and understand your relationship between theism and atheism, like being on a seesaw? :seesaw:

Which one do you find more frustrating? :banghead3 Religion? Or atheism? If religion, which one trouble you the most? :(

Or do you don't trouble yourself with religion? :)

for the most part i give religion little thought although i do enjoy spirited debate. no, we agnostics are not on the fence. as i see it, the faithful BELIEVE it to be fact that god exists and atheists BELIEVE it to be fact that god does not exist. as an agnostic i think that the human mind is incapable of knowing either way. though neither the faithful nor the atheist can be proven wrong by me, likewise neither can prove their case to me and i am the only one of the three who has no claim to prove. a fence sitter can lean either way. to me both arguments are equally delusional.
 

ColeBowl

Member
It is evident in society that different cultures live according to their own idea of existence, thus creating a long chain of beliefs that people hold as their own separate truth. Relativism has falsely been argued as fact, bringing up the reality that everyone views our shared existence differently depending on every aspect of their culture. along time ago it was it was not possible for every culture to communicate all their ideas into one, and this is why there are countless numbers of different cultures with drastic differences in moral beliefs and ideas on our shared existence. It is accepted through science that humans are all the same species and that we all live on the same planet. With humans sharing all this common ground it cannot be possible that everyone’s ideas of right and wrong be correct. Relativism is contrary to a universal truth of what is right for the benefit of all life.
Sophists used the idea of Relativism to their own advantage when teaching people who would otherwise prosecute ideas against their cultured way of living. Relativism was the tool Sophists used in their job goal of teaching people how to live happily. Sophists successfully planted Relativism as an appealing argument for right in wrong by keeping everyone happy by holding on to their own ideas, for it affirmed they were right. If the Sophists taught that certain actions of the ancient greeks were wrong then there would most certainly be retaliation against the Sophists who would then have no means for living. It is with selfishness for personal ideas to keep ones self happy that Relativism has so successfully been weeded into philosophy.
Relativism detriments philosophical discussion by having people hold on to their ideas where as in a discussion, one should only loosely envision their ideas and be open to others. Someone arguing the truth in Relativism is cutting short the possibility of growth to new ideas. Limiting philosophical discussion limits philosophical growth and without that growth the people of the world will continue on the current path of torturous life, greed, and apathy to these human flaws. If everyone were moral relativists, there would be no stopping people who would take advantage of good people. Everyone would see justification in other peoples actions because someone's particular situation guided them to do things that are right for them regardless of the customs of other people.
There is universal truth as there are universal laws of physics. There are accepted
laws in mathematics that we can see through observation and arithmetic that explain how fast objects fall, and how long it will take to get from one point to the next. These accepted laws describe singular events in reality with indisputable facts. All living things have a shared existence in this universe, so there must be universal truth that is definite to all living organisms. It could be argued that reality is chaotic and there can’t be a single truth to right and wrong if life is full of chaos. Chaos has a starting point, as with all reality and will stop if outside forces intervene and thus restart the cycle. Therefore, chaos is inconsequential to universal truth.
We can learn universal truth through careful observation of life that has no choice, only purpose. For instance, if you look at the human body you see millions of tiny single celled living organisms with the purpose of duplicating life and working together to create a machine that will create more life as well as combat its own pain by feeding itself and maintaining homeostasis. Humans have in common with these single cells, life, and community. Through a community, life has become intelligent enough to share pain or give it. Community requires animals to obtain a certain level of intelligence to recognize each other as similar beings who will work together for the good of the community. Intelligent life must work together as one in order to flourish. Without understanding of universal truth to right and wrong, a community will be dysfunctional and will fall into unnecessary struggles such as poverty and war, wasting resources of the entire community.
To help understand a universal truth, one should look at all living creatures as being the same. Life is different as a result of evolution which is not an intelligent system but rather natural selection where only the most effective flourish. With intellect, it is necessary to recognize universal truth for the adequately comfortable survival of all life. Through intelligence humans have become the most influential animals on the face of the earth, and it is common belief that humans are obligated to use intelligence for the benefit of others. Accordingly within scripture, “... he who had not been told it and yet did what deserved the scourge, will receive but few lashes. To whomsoever much has been given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been entrusted, of him a larger amount will be demanded.” (Weymouth New Testament, Luke 12.48). Unlike humans carnivorous plants who have no perception of choice, live through taking life from bugs but have no cognitive power to do so otherwise, so universal truth of right and wrong won’t be obtained from all life that does not perceive.
Time has taken humans well beyond ignorance; and with community, our intelligence, creativity, and ability for connection reaches no maximum. Life will not last on its own inside the confines that exists outside our mind with barriers made of fundamental laws paralleling with all existence. Our only limit to understanding a universal truth without relative good comes from ignoring our prosperity as a single being within innumerable life. Through universal truth, evil will exist only as ignorance of an open-mind guided by virtue. Omnibenevolence will be a trait present in everyone who recognizes universal truth. Tension between life and our shared material world keeps humans bound as one. It is only together that life can have love.



The origins of beauty
in sound, light, and compassion
beauty is either a gift
or a choice made by life
even still with our choice being present
or not
beauty is still there
 

Mr.Lost

Mr.Lost
Does being an agnostic feel like you're sitting on a fence? Or that you're trying juggle and understand your relationship between theism and atheism, like being on a seesaw? :seesaw:

Which one do you find more frustrating? :banghead3 Religion? Or atheism? If religion, which one trouble you the most? :(

Or do you don't trouble yourself with religion? :)


Ok ok let me step in here to have some fun too lol. I'm only 18 and have not fully understood all religions however i do know really well what agonistic and atheism is. Me and my brother are both agnostics how ever have very different view points. He leans towards the big bang theory and I lean towards a mightily god. There are agnostics who lean all over the scale. The seesaw affect as you will. However If you pick a religion it’s really the same way people are on the scale from devote to not going at all. People are hieratical too witch makes things have a bit of a twist. On me it did anyways. My mom is in the hospital and is paralyzed from the neck down I pray but it’s as if I pray to a brick wall. I’m not an atheious how ever because of the sight hope the slim hope that every thing will be back to normal. Hope some times feels futile but for me call me what you want. I will run towards god weather he’s there or not but I will not say there is one because I’m lost to...:(
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Sorry to hear about your mum, mr lost.

Some people find that they can find hope or comfort through religion or through praying. That's not a bad thing, because everyone needs to find strength or hope.

mr lost said:
I will run towards god weather he’s there or not but I will not say there is one because I’m lost to...

Well, the first part sounds like "faith" to me. But the other, does sound agnostic. But I don't think you are the only ones who feel this way. There are many Christians who believe, and yet at the same time, don't know for certainty if god exist.

mr lost said:
He leans towards the big bang theory and I lean towards a mightily god.

Well, the big bang theory is not religion. The big bang theory is not even about atheism (or agnosticism). It (big bang) is merely a description of how universe may have come to be.

I know a lot of atheists, personally, in my life, who don't believe in the big bang theory, or even evolution, because to be atheists you don't require to believe in it. I think they don't believe in it because they don't understand the theory because not every atheists are scientists or astrophysicists, and the theory is a lot more complicated than most people would understand. Many of atheist friends are certainly not scientists, they are most accountants, market experts, or other fields relating to business or finance.
 

Mr.Lost

Mr.Lost
oops I many not have been totally clear on what i was trying say. I don't know whether i was or not. So ill try again. My brother and i don't have a side one way or another we just sort of think the possibilities are closer in certain areas. I assume most agnostics feel the same way. Correct me if I'm wrong lol:shrug:
 
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