Question regarding free will

[Skwim]

How do we distinguish "free will" from other types of will? Or, do we?

Will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires.

Free will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.


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[Kilgore Trout]

Will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires.

Free will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.

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How do we distinguish my desires from someone controlling my desires?

 

[Kemosloby]

Only God is truely free, since God has all power and can do anything. How can we be free when we can't do so many things we want to do, walk on water, fly like superman, etc etc.

 

[Skwim]

How do we distinguish my desires from someone controlling my desires?

Just to be clear, "my desire" would be "my desire" no matter what the catalyst. And unless you're talking about some outside source who's selling you on something; making you desire the new Ford Ranger XL Turbo + 8, it would all be your own desire. The difference between desire that arises through cause and effect---you act because the desire to do so was the result of the chain of cause/effect events leading up to the desire (determinism)---and desire uncontrolled by such a chain of cause/effect events, one directed by the free will, is that you still have to account for the why of desiring what you did. Why this particular desire arose rather than some other or no other? Just what is the mechanism of the will that operates free of cause/effect?

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[Nakosis]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines?

Like God, it all depends on how you define it. I define it as being able to do want you want to do. For example a person in prison has less free will then a person who is not in prison.

Some philosophical folks have some "crazy" definition for free will. Like the ability to do something other than what you did. Obviously impossible. Who can go back in time and even test that theory? So they come up with a definition for free will that can't possibly exist and then claim it can't possibly exist... Ok, good on ya for creating a definition that couldn't possibly exist. Can maybe now we get back to reality?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Just to be clear, "my desire" would be "my desire" no matter what the catalyst. And unless you're talking about some outside source who's selling you on something; making you desire the new Ford Ranger XL Turbo + 8, it would all be your own desire. The difference between desire that arises through cause and effect---you act because the desire to do so was the result of the chain of cause/effect events leading up to the desire (determinism)---and desire uncontrolled by such a chain of cause/effect events, one directed by the free will, is that you still have to account for the why of desiring what you did. Why this particular desire arose rather than some other or no other? Just what is the mechanism of the will that operates free from cause/effect?

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There doesn't seem to be any way to distinguish whether such will would be a result of a network of cause/effect, or came about through some type of randomized/arbitrary method.

 

[Skwim]

There doesn't seem to be any way to distinguish whether such will would be a result of a network of cause/effect, or came about through some type of randomized/arbitrary method.

Nope, except that randomness in its most absolute sense has never been shown to exist. Any perceived randomness only exists because we fail to identify its cause. And even if our actions were driven by truly random events, this would still qualify as a cause, and not do a thing to help the concept of free will.

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[Robert Vincelette]

How do we distinguish "free will" from other types of will? Or, do we?

I do not think we can know enough to distinguish. But I think we can guess that overwhelming probability of a sequence of electron transitions might be another type of will, e.g. unconsciously buying a product that advertising in concert with the environment had programmed someone to buy without their knowing that they had been programmed, is a non-free will. That goes back to Kant's categorical imperative which is violated by selling someone something useless or even harmful.

 

[Nakosis]

How do we distinguish "free will" from other types of will? Or, do we?

Will in this case expresses desire. Free will is having the capacity to act on that desire. It's the only definition that makes sense with regards to humans.

Any other definition is just woo-woo stuff. The other definition is based on religious mumbo-jumbo created to explain a religious ideology about God.

 

[Nakosis]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

I think science is pointing to the fact that the religious concept of free will doesn't exist. By definition it is simply illogical. However I don't think from that we need to conclude we are just machines, at least not yet.

 

[bnabernard]

BrahmaKumari belief is that the Soul constitutes of 3 faculties
Mann (Mind) : The ability to think ,wish or will.
Buddhi ( Intellect ) : The ability to judge , understand and investigate.
Sanskaar ( Values ) : The ability to retain impressions from past experiences in the form of attitudes , moods and habits.
It is these abilities which distinguish one man from another and determine the mental and moral state of a person.
The body is an assemblage of various instruments in the form of organs , that are controlled and used by the soul , through the brain.
The Soul is a tiny star , an infinitesimal point of eternal light , the Conscious energy, which sits in the hypothalamus ( center of the forehead) , from where it controls the body.
The Soul in its purest is most efficient and happy , the Soul when it becomes impure is least efficient and unhappy . It is the Soul which experience happiness and sorrow , pleasure or pain.

The soul (the body) has no free will it is governed by genetics, the spirit however has free will it decides where and when how and why happy sad etc. the spirit works through the brain, the control center

 

[bnabernard]

I think I can help here. Science does not conclude that at the scale of individual actions of electrons in the brain manifesting themselves as our consciousness is determined by the forces and histories of position and momenta of the atoms and their electrons. It was determined early in the 20th Century that these actions are governed by probability and not cause and effect that we see at the macroscopic scale. If you know what section of an electron's orbit is considered in a one-electron atom, you can calculate the integral of the probability density from the Schrodinger wave function of the orbiting electron and ins complex conjugate. The limits of integration determine that probability that at any given time something is in that volume it will react with the electron and cause the electron to change state as it does in any chemical reaction. Heisenberg indeterminacy establishes that the electron has no unique orbital position because the momentum of the electron can be specified exactly. Furthermore for the electron to be deterministic but unknown where it is in its orbit, that is, orbiting the nucleus like the moon orbiting the earth, it would make the orbital path into a loop antenna with the alternating current causing it to radiate out its energy which would cause the electron to slow down in its orbit and spiral into the nucleus. There are several other details that further make the electron a sort of ring (see pictures in any quantum mechanics text) with direct current forming the magnetic fields they form. There is the law of symmetry that this indeterminacy that makes the actions of electrons true when we go from the steady state Schrodinger equation to time dependent perturbation theory.
So this indeterminacy of of exactly what electrons will do cannot be resolved by any physical mechanics. Thus, this freedom from absolute constraint is a partial free will that is an integral part of our consciousness.
Keep in mind that this only disproves determinism or that we are classical machines. It does not prove what a "soul" is, but it denies us the power to rule it in or out.

However does not rule out pre deterministic equation, I believe a simple answer here is summed up in the confusion of tongues at Babel

 

[Nakosis]

The soul (the body) has no free will it is governed by genetics, the spirit however has free will it decides where and when how and why happy sad etc. the spirit works through the brain, the control center

So what is the spirit. How would you define spirit?

The conscious self? Is that the spirit? A number of definitions equate soul and spirit.

Maybe like conscious vs subconscious mind?

 

[Repox]

Free will is directly related to salvation. If humans don't obey God they have no salvation. The Old Testament is a history of humans refusal to obey God's commandments. It is profoundly simple, if you don't obey God's commandments you have no relationship with Him.

Humans don't have a spirit. Except for symbolic communication abilities, they are similar to other species. Humans have been tested to be an unique species. Since God has intervened in human affairs, humans have had an opportunity to have a relationship with God. However, there is no relationship if they don't obey God. The Old Testament is a history of God's chosen people rebelling and therefore being independent of God.

If determinism prevailed, morality would be just another belief system. Everyday, humans make free will choices separating them from other species. If there was no free will, Satan would be just another escape goal for ill-fated decisions.

 

[Enoch07]

It is said by scientific materialists that we have no free will and that we are biological machines. Our brains are machines that make us move and perform actions. But if we do have a soul, then does the soul itself have free will? Or is it also a machine? If you think about it, how can free will even exist? Wouldn't everything have to be machines? Wouldn't free will just be another way of saying we are machines?

I look at it as the body is hardware and the soul/mind is software. If you was to put it in mechanical terms. Imo freewill did not exist there would be no eternal conflicts. An example, we all know cigarette smoking is bad for you. Yet some people still smoke. So why? Because it feels good.

The conflict is knowing you shouldn't smoke vs eff it I'll smoke anyways.

If no freewill the machine would just puff away with no guilt until death, because of the pleasure it brings to the flesh/machine. It is the software the mind/spirit that must control the machine for it owns good.

 

[confused453]

We have a consequential will. It can be quite expensive if you set it loose!

 

[psychoslice]

Only God is truely free, since God has all power and can do anything. How can we be free when we can't do so many things we want to do, walk on water, fly like superman, etc etc.

Do you really believe in that ??.

 

[Kemosloby]

Do you really believe in that ??.

How free do you have to be to consider yourself free? Does a person in a wheelchair have a choice? Does a person who is slave to sin have a choice?

 

[capumetu]

Gen 1:26 points out that we are made in God's image; of course, that is either true or false. If we were no different than animals the evidence would be clear, we as humans would all instinctively behave the same way. A rabbit behaves the same way no matter what country it lives in. Humans are clearly distinct from the animal world.

The term soul is very misunderstood. All live beings whether animals or humans they are a soul Num 31:28; there is nothing that survives death Ez 18:4, Ps 146:4. Hope that helps.

capumetu @yours.com

No space after u

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[Willamena]

Will is the capacity to act decisively on one's desires.

Free will is to do so undirected by controlling influences.


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Is following orders acting decisively on your desires?