Question to Christians - 144,000 Start and Finish

[Brian2]

Does the Bible speak of the 144,000 as standing on Mt Zion with the Lamb?
Where is Mt Zion? Jesus told the Samaritan woman that no earthy mountain would be the seat of God's worship in the times to come. (John 4:19-22) This is heavenly Mt Zion...the location of the grand spiritual temple of which the earthly temple was a type, and the earthly priesthood also prefigured the priesthood who will rule in heaven with Jesus, who is now our High Priest. (Revelation 20:6; Hebrews 3:1)

John 4:19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

It may indicate that no earthly mountain would be the seat of God's worship, but that does not mean that the Mt Zion in Rev 14:1-5 is in heaven. If we read John 4 on a little we see what Jesus meant. True worship will come from those who worship in Spirit and truth, whether on Mt Zion in Jerusalem or Mt Moriah where the Temple was or Mt Gerizim where the Samaritans worshipped. That true worship can be anywhere, in heaven or on earth.
Maybe the Watch Tower has told you that John 4:19-22 means that true worship will not be on any mountain on earth but it means that it will not be on any particular mountain anywhere in heaven or on earth. JWs read the passage with the WT teaching in mind (the teaching of the faithful and discreet slave), and so see it as meaning whatever the WT has said even if it does not actually say that.

Revelation 14:1-5....
"Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.
These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb".

Here they are...the 144,000 who have been "bought from among mankind" as "firstfruits".
What are firstfruits? In the agricultural world firstfruits are the choicest and best of the crop, usually followed by another harvest of lesser quality a bit later. What is the point of calling them "firstfruits" if the second crop (the "other sheep" of John 10:16) are not following later?

Being bought from mankind does not mean that the 144,000 are destined for heaven. Being firstfruits does not mean that all Christians are not included in that number. IMO another harvest can come from those who have not believed in Jesus in this present age. Those who are still of the nations and given mercy by Jesus in the judgement. Those whose righteousness nevertheless exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus day. Or of course another interpretation could be the right one, but not one where the Great Crowd are denied the benefits of being Christian given to all who believe. Not one where the 144,000 are seen as going to heaven when God and the Lamb will be with them and all His people on earth in the heavenly Jerusalem which has come down to earth.
All Christians in the New Testament have been bought with a price, the blood of Jesus and belong to Him and are firstfruits,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless of course you believe the WT and see much of the New Testament as applying to the 144,000 only. Then you can easily say that certain passages apply only to the 144,000 even if there is no indication of that in the passages.

Revelation 7:2-4....
"And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel".

These are bought from "among mankind", not from the nation of natural Israel. They are taken from 'spiritual' Israel, who were made up of Jesus disciples, (which included both Jews and Gentiles) whom the apostle Paul called "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16). These are resurrected "first. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:10)

These were taken into the "new covenant" which was inaugurated by Jesus on the night before his death. (Luke 22:29; John 14:2-3) Those of the "heavenly calling" were chosen from the first century onward. None who died prior to Jesus, qualified to hold a heavenly position, as Jesus is "firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18) He was the first human to die in the flesh and be resurrected in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) It was his death that opened the way to heaven for others to follow.

John 3:13...
"Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."

The "great crowd" are seen as survivors of the "great tribulation" and they attribute salvation to God and to the Lamb, having symbolically 'washed their garments in his blood'. The "great tribulation" is also part of the sign of Jesus' 'presence" in these last days, and it occurs on earth. (Matthew 24:21)

That is a good spiel but it is only a theory about who the great crowd and the 144,000 are, and things have been added (such as they are the ones who are in the covenant etc) and none of it is spelt out in the Bible, and in fact parts are seen to be untrue. Example:
The great crowd is before the throne, presumably in heaven and do sacred service in the sanctuary of God. The obvious meaning has to be twisted by the Watch Tower.
Everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. (1John 5:1)
The Father and Son will dwell with anyone who loves Jesus and keeps His words. (John 14:23)
Romans 8: 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

If you are not born of God and have the Spirit living in you then you cannot please God. Christians all are pleasing to God and are His children because we all have been born again.
Acts 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

I came out of Christendom, and have 50 years of deep Bible study under my belt, doing exactly what the Beroeans did. I have compared what I learned in church with what I learned from the Bible and there was no comparison. What about you?

In your responses I seem to detect the twang of a disgruntled apostate.....am I wrong?....were you formerly associated with JW's?

You can believe whatever you like....what you accept or don't accept has nothing to do with me.

We are at the brink of the Promised Land.....it is Jesus who is the appointed judge of who is granted citizenship in that new world of righteousness....and who is not. (2 Peter 3:13) He's the one we all have to answer to. (Matthew 7:21-23)

No I'm not an apostate. I have been confused by aspects of JW doctrine however and have had to spend time sorting it all out.
Many people from all belief backgrounds have spent many yours studying the Bible and think they are right.
The more we think we know the harder it can be to become humble like a little child to accept and enter the Kingdom.

 

[Deeje]

No I'm not an apostate. I have been confused by aspects of JW doctrine however and have had to spend time sorting it all out.
Many people from all belief backgrounds have spent many yours studying the Bible and think they are right.
The more we think we know the harder it can be to become humble like a little child to accept and enter the Kingdom.

If you have not come to the same conclusions as we have, then that is your choice....nothing we have to say to you will have any impact on your beliefs...and that is the way it will be with those who hear the truth of God’s word. To some it will be the best news ever...but for the majority, it will be falsehood, not agreeing with anything they want to believe. Jesus said to expect opposition....but if some listened to him, some will listen to us. (John 15:18-21; Matthew 7:13-14)

The “faithful slave” exists, and is feeding his fellow slaves in their entire global brotherhood. We have to find him and we believe we have. Have you found him? Or are you feeding yourself?
There is no ‘buffet’ or ‘self service’ at Jehovah’s table. This is why we are one united brotherhood with none who want to bring in their own ideas, which only causes disharmony and division. (1 Corinthians 1:10) That kind of fragmentation describes Christendom.

We are commanded to “preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” and “make disciples” of them before “the end” comes, (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)......who are known world wide for their preaching? It was never mentioned in my former church.

When I compared what my church taught compared to what the Bible teaches, I realised that I had been taught to pray the “Lord’s Prayer” from childhood (mindlessly and by rote).....but no one ever told me what God’s Kingdom actually was, and how it “comes”, so that God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. No preachers from Christendom ever came to me to offer me the good news, so I grew up not knowing the most basic and fundamental teaching of Jesus himself. All I saw after that, was a monumental sham masquerading as Christ’s “church”. They never lived up to what they claimed to be.

So.....if the seed we plant does not grow after watering, it will just rot in the soil in which it is buried. We are not responsible for the outcome.

You are free to dismiss anything we tell you if it does not resonate......simple. It’s not us who makes the seed grow.

Nothing will stop the kingdom from ‘coming’, and we need to be part of God’s solution...not part of satan’s rebellion. This is his world, effectively controlling all of mankind through his three main avenues....the political, commercial and religious elements of his world.

If God’s own son was rejected as a fake Messiah, how are his disciples going to be taken seriously when smear campaigns work? People believe what they want to believe, for their own reasons. This is why God chooses us, we don’t just choose him. He will allow us to entertain whatever beliefs appeal to our own hearts. We will all know in “the end” if we qualified for citizenship in his kingdom. But I believe that we will all belong to the same global brotherhood, united in worship, but separated from the “weeds”, no matter what nation we live in or what language we speak.

If you can find such a brotherhood elsewhere, then you are welcome to join them.

 

[JW Minister]

Questions to Christians:

1. According to Christianity, what are the requirements for someone to be included in the 144,000 number?
2. According to Christianity, when did the 144,000 count start and when does it end?
   • Also, is this number based on the actual Jewish tribes or are non-Christian Jews excluded from the number and is there a Christian 12 tribes, that started after the time of Jesus?
   • If so, what tribes do the various post Jesus Christians, from the start to the finish of this number, come from?

Thanks.

1. According to Christianity, what are the requirements for someone to be included in the 144,000 number?

The person has ti be born again

1. According to Christianity, when did the 144,000 count start and when does it end?

The chosen ones began being selected at Pentecost 33CE when a spiritual Israel replaced the nation of Israel rejected by Jesus and predicted the Jewish way of worship and its temple would be destroyed which was fulfilled in 70C.E

1. • Also, is this number based on the actual Jewish tribes or are non-Christian Jews excluded from the number and is there a Christian 12 tribes, that started after the time of Jesus?
   • If so, what tribes do the various post Jesus Christians, from the start to the finish of this number, come from?
   The book that has the 144,000 Revelation is a book of symbols and without Gods spirit the Churches cant understand what different ones mean.The majority of those saved will live forever on earth only a limited number will go to heaven.To come to a complete understanding of the 144,000 with scriptural support click the link:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200274226
Thanks.[/QUOTE]

 

[Muffled]

[QUOTE="Eyes to See, post: 6903098, member: 68737"]It is understandable that you may have that viewpoint. Without Jehovah's holy spirit it would be impossible to understand these truths. The 144,000 we are told are bought from among mankind. The fact that they are bought from among men is because they are brought to heaven as firstfruits of God.

"With him 144,000...were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."-Revelation 14:1, 4.

James says concerning these 144,000 (the anointed Christian congregation):

"It was his will to bring us forth by the word of truth, so that we would become a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."-James 1:18.

Concerning these firstfruits scripture tells us:

"Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom."-Romans 8:23.

Now if you remember in the very first post I made I referred to this scripture in Romans 8 about Jesus Christ being the firstborn among whom we who are called to heaven are to be patterned after, as he is to have many brothers. These are the firstfruits. Revelation 14 clearly connects those called to heavenly life that will rule with Christ with the firstfruits of the resurrection. These firstfruits, the 144,000 are standing on Mount Zion with Jesus Christ in that vision. This Mount Zion is in heaven:

(Hebrews 12:22, 23) . . .But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels  in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens. . .[/QUOTE]

I believe I have the Holy Spirit as much as anyone and more than most people.

I believe I do not see the word bought in that passage and the people are those who are gathered on Mount Zion with Jesus which is consistent with the concept that they are Jewish: Rev 7:4 ...144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

I believe there is no such language in the text. If this is really a first fruit then there is more coming. That would appear to be the rapture and it is neither to heaven nor Heaven but to the clouds.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Muffled]

I suppose all that tells me part of the JW belief concerning the 144,000 but that does not tell me why you see the scriptures you cite as applying to the 144,000 only and not to all Christians.



Again that shows a JW belief only and not why the whole of the NT is not for and about this group.
What you wrote joins parts of Revelations together as if there is no question that what you are saying is correct,,,,,,,,,,,,whereas of course there are big questions. What you wrote might be teaching that you present to the converted, who would nod and agree with all that you have said but it does not show how you come to your conclusions about New Jerusalem for example, or the 144,000 being spirits in heaven.
Actually from a plain reading of Rev 21 God and the Lamb are going to be there with their people,,,,,,not in heaven with 144,000 special Christians.



This does not show me where the Bible teaches that Christ will rule from heaven.



Again that is stating your belief about Rev 20:6 but that verse says nothing about Christ or the 144,000 reigning from heaven.

I believe not all Christians can stand on Mount Zion. There are too many of us.

 

[Muffled]

It would mean that all Christians are going to heaven....do you believe that? If so what gives you that idea?
If God had wanted humans in heaven, he would have put them there as spirit beings in the first place like he did the angels.
Go back to Eden and ask yourself why God put mortal humans on earth in the beginning? What do you think?
Why are we here? If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed God's command...would they have ever died? (Romans 5:12)



The whole of the NT is written for all Christians in principle, but there are two distinct groups mentioned in Revelation 7. One group is the 144,000 and the other is infinite, meaning that their numbers are not set. That is great news for all the faithful because it means that we make the choice to become part of that "great crowd" who attribute salvation to God and to the Lamb, just by being obedient to God and the teachings of his Christ.

"Doing the will of the Father" is what will determine our individual destiny (Matthew 7:21-23)....its not simply being, or identifying as, part of a collective. God has always had a "people" separated out of the world and given his instructions. (Acts 15:14)

In view of the foretold apostasy, it means that Christianity would no longer be that one group because if you look at Christendom, it is fractured into literally thousands of sects, all believing different things but universally sticking to one set of core beliefs. i.e. God existing as a trinity. (three gods in one head)....immortality of the soul. (which means we don't really die)....And a burning hell of eternal conscious torment for the wicked. (which goes against God's perfect justice)

If none of those doctrines is scripturally true, then it means that the majority of "Christians" is heading down the wrong track. Jesus indicated that "few" would be on the road to life, because its "cramped and narrow" (Matthew 7:13-14).....most people don't want a 'cramped and narrow' life...they want the freedom to do as they please. This leads to all manner of compromise as we see in Christendom's churches. They water down God's word to keep 'backsides on seats' and money in their coffers.

2 Timothy 4:2-5...
"Preach the word; be at it urgently in favorable times and difficult times; reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all patience and art of teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry."

Here is Peter warning about that very thing. Do we want our 'ears tickled' or do we want the truth, inconvenient as it may be?

We have an assignment and it was not going to be easy, especially because most of the flack we will receive supposedly comes from believers in the same God......who was it that gave Jesus and his apostles a hard time? Wasn't it the same situation? Jesus exposed the Jewish religious system as a corrupted fraud, passing off the "traditions of men" as if they were scriptural doctrines. (Matthew 15:7-9) Christendom is a mirror image of Judaism, also passing off concepts and ideas as "Christian" when they never were.

The rot set in right after the apostles passed away. The "weeds" of Jesus' parable were sown "among the wheat" by the devil, "while men were sleeping". And the two were to grow together until the "harvest time". Because only then would there be a clear difference, and the reapers were instructed to clear out the "weeds" before those angels gathered the "wheat" into God's storehouse. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)

The "weeds" referred to in Jesus' illustration are generally believed to be bearded darnel, (called in the Middle East, "wheat's evil twin") a poisonous plant that closely resembles wheat when the wheat is in its early stages of development. As the wheat and the weeds grow together, their roots become intertwined, making it impossible to remove the weeds without losing the wheat. Once the bearded darnel reaches maturity, it no longer resembles wheat and can easily be distinguished and removed.

Now, when you see a pattern like that in the scriptures, you know who is behind it because he does not change his tactics. He is a deceiver. (2 Corinthians 2:11; 2 Corinthians 11:14-15) He can make black appear to be as white as snow....and he has his human minions.

I believe no Christians are going to heaven or Heaven. We are all destined for the New Jerusalem.

 

[JW Minister]

What is the correct translation of the Greek word “parousia,” is it “presence” or “coming”?[/URL]
What is the correct translation of the Greek word “parousia,” is it “presence” or “coming”?

This is from a website which correctly shows the Greek
“parousia which can mean Presence or coming

For it to compare to a one day event of a rapture it would yes be "coming"

“Presence” is over a period of time

“Coming” is an instant in time which is what a rapture would be ,Jesus suddenly appear takes those saved to heaven what takes one day.

Many scholars argue for and against which is the correct one for this verse since both mean “parousia

We however can deduce which is correct by simply thinking about what the Jews were under at the time,they were under Roman Rule their Kingdom was literally the Roman law ,so they wanted to have their earthly Kingdom restored
by the promised King Messiah .When Jesus arrived they wanted to make him King and Jesus refused to restore the earthly Kingdom he plainly said:


King James Bible
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

That presented a problem to the Chief Priests and all the other Jews here Jesus was proclaiming he was the deliverer of Israel yet his Kingdom was not in Jerusalem but New Jerusalem in heaven so for that reason most rejected him and murdered him.

Even his loyal followers after Jesus died and rose from the grave asked him this question;

King James Bible
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Christian Standard Bible
So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?"

Good News Translation
When the apostles met together with Jesus, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time give the Kingdom back to Israel?"

Incredibly they asked him this even after he has rose from the dead

So this is how we know they didnt ask when was he coming again what would he coming again for his Kingdom would be set up in heaven not on earth.
So the correct word they used was indeed “Presence”



NWT
Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence*+ and of the conclusion of the system of things?”*+


Jesus compared the days of Noah to his presence by saying;



Ive established that they didn't ask when was he coming again

For just as the days of Noah were,+ so the presence* of the Son of man will be.

OK now we can compare the scriptures to a one day event of a RAPTURE

How is a one day event like Jesus suddenly appearing to the says of Noah?
They eat and drink married and took no note as to waht was going on just like today so that compare to Noahs day nut there is something else even more important to compare THE ARK how long did it take Noah to build this structure?

How Long Did It Take for Noah to Build the Ark?


"We would end up with a tentative range of about 55 to 75 years for a reasonable maximum time to build the Ark. Of course, it could be less than this depending on the age that Noah’s sons took wives"


So does this long time compare with a one day event like a RAPTURE?
Or does this long time compare to Jesus “Presence” Zions Watchtower says began in 1914 well over 100 years now

In order for a rapture to compare to the days of Noah would have to be built the ark in one day and gathered the animals and the flood came the same day that is the only way and that makes no sense.

In the same context of scripture Jesus continued:

Who really is the faithful and discreet* slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?+ 46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so!+ 47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings.

Jesus here was saying when his Kingdom is established or come to power he would then appoint a wise servant to feed his sheep,Zions Watchtower said this began in 1914-1919 when he "CAME" to power many say JWs teach Jesus came in 1914 not true he never has left heaven his coming was his Kingdom coming to power whaich I proved thats what they asked about.

How does this compare with a RAPTURE? IT DOESN'T, WHY NOT?
Simply because according to this teaching Jesus has not come yet so therefore he has not appointed a slave which means his sheep are spiritually starved all these years and even if he did come he wouldn't appoint a slave then since he would be coming to take those saved to heaven they would need to be feed they would have their reward and be with God.

So for these reasons when you compare this false teaching with the scriptures it comes up as false and making no sense.

In the same context in Matt 24 Jesus pointed to the actually date his Kingdom would be established in answer to his followers HE SAID;

"For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom"

Jesus was predicting a WORLD WAR as the actual year his Kingdom would be established.

This was World War 1 what year did this war start?

World War I, also known as the Great War, began in 1914

 

[Deeje]

I believe no Christians are going to heaven or Heaven. We are all destined for the New Jerusalem.

The "New Jerusalem" is not on earth, nor is God's Temple, of which the earthly one was a type or shadow. The priesthood who will serve in God's grand spiritual temple are no longer humans, but resurrected "first" as spirit beings in order to join Christ in the "place" he went to "prepare" for them. (John 13:33, 36; John 14:2-4; Revelation 20:6)

Jesus already indicated to the Samaritan woman that no earthly location would be the seat of God's worship in the future.

John 4:21-24...
"Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

In Revelation 21:1-4...."New Jerusalem" is seen "coming down out of heaven" bringing the blessings of God's Kingdom to mankind. Its a heavenly government sent to rule God's people and to bring them back into reconciliation with God. (2 Corinthians 5:18)

 

[Brian2]

The “faithful slave” exists, and is feeding his fellow slaves in their entire global brotherhood. We have to find him and we believe we have. Have you found him? Or are you feeding yourself?
There is no ‘buffet’ or ‘self service’ at Jehovah’s table. This is why we are one united brotherhood with none who want to bring in their own ideas, which only causes disharmony and division. (1 Corinthians 1:10) That kind of fragmentation describes Christendom.

1Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
God feeds me with His Word through various of His servants.
There were divisions in Corinth even in Paul's day, and it is 2000 years later.
The weeds will be eliminated when the angels are sent to gather them out from the wheat and burn them, in the meantime the Church lives with them as it has for 2000 years and those who have been first will be last and those who have been last will be first.
It is just like Satan to work hard to cause problems and divisions in Christ's Church and then to set up a system where disagreement is not tolerated and point to Christendom in condemnation.

We are commanded to “preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” and “make disciples” of them before “the end” comes, (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)......who are known world wide for their preaching? It was never mentioned in my former church.

I don't think the gospel of the JWs is really the gospel that Jesus taught. It is certainly not in the Bible, as shown by the lack of evidence which you have given for a central teaching of the 144,000.
I guess not that I am recognised as opposition, I will be ignored to an extent. I do ask awkward questions at times but it is meant to show that the Watch Tower is not what you may think and the teachings are not always Biblical.

When I compared what my church taught compared to what the Bible teaches, I realised that I had been taught to pray the “Lord’s Prayer” from childhood (mindlessly and by rote).....but no one ever told me what God’s Kingdom actually was, and how it “comes”, so that God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. No preachers from Christendom ever came to me to offer me the good news, so I grew up not knowing the most basic and fundamental teaching of Jesus himself. All I saw after that, was a monumental sham masquerading as Christ’s “church”. They never lived up to what they claimed to be.

I'm pleased I had a Catholic upbringing even if my experience as a late teen was that I did not really know the gospel after all those years and I was judgemental. I did not toss out the whole Church however, or as you would call Christendom even if at that time I was approached by SDA and JWs and got confused about what the Bible taught.

You are free to dismiss anything we tell you if it does not resonate......simple. It’s not us who makes the seed grow.

Thanks. You certainly reach that conclusion after a while on the forums too.

If God’s own son was rejected as a fake Messiah, how are his disciples going to be taken seriously when smear campaigns work? People believe what they want to believe, for their own reasons.

I'm not sure what smear campaigns you are referring to. I have seen plenty of information about the dishonesty of the Watch Tower and other things but they seem mainly honest complaints to me and I wonder why the JWs cannot see that. But as you say people believe what they want for their own reasons.
I do think it is disgraceful how some people who leave the JWs end up losing their friends and families. That to me seems like a cultish trap that keeps people there when they might otherwise go.

 

[Brian2]

The "New Jerusalem" is not on earth, nor is God's Temple, of which the earthly one was a type or shadow. The priesthood who will serve in God's grand spiritual temple are no longer humans, but resurrected "first" as spirit beings in order to join Christ in the "place" he went to "prepare" for them. (John 13:33, 36; John 14:2-4; Revelation 20:6)

Those verses do not say that they will go to the New Jerusalem and even if they did that does not mean that the New Jerusalem is not going to come down out of heaven as Revelation describes or that the OT saints will not be there (see Heb 11:10,16) or that the kings of the nations will not bring their grandeur into it. (Rev 21:24)

Jesus already indicated to the Samaritan woman that no earthly location would be the seat of God's worship in the future.

John 4:21-24...
"Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

That does not say that no earthly location would be the seat of God's worship.
God has said He will be in Jerusalem forever, new Jerusalem from heave but in the same place.
Ps 132:13,14 For the Lord has chosen Zion;
He has desired it for His habitation.
“This is My resting place forever;
Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.

In Revelation 21:1-4....

"New Jerusalem" is seen "coming down out of heaven" bringing the blessings of God's Kingdom to mankind. Its a heavenly government sent to rule God's people and to bring them back into reconciliation with God. (2 Corinthians 5:18)

God's Kingdom is not a Government. Where do you get that idea? The Kingdom may include a Government but all Christians are in the Kingdom.
2Cor 5:18 speaks about our work now not in the Kingdom. In the fulness of the Kingdom on earth all God's people already have reconciliation to God through Jesus. This is what 2 Cor 5:18 tells us along with other passages. (eg Col 1:19,20)
How is it that your gospel teaches that the great crowd have not even been reconciled to God?
Your gospel does not sound like the gospel in the Bible.

I noticed these passage which are inclusive of ANYONE who loves Jesus and the Father, and basically say that the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God will be with them. (John 14: 18-24) There are not 2 Spirits, there is one and the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God and ANYONE can have it. (Eph 4:4-6) If you have the Spirit of Christ and are led by that Spirit of God you belong to Christ and are heirs with Him. (Romans 8:9-17) Everyone can be born again and have God's Spirit in them. See 1John 4:15 and 1 John 5:1.
If the WT does not teach that everyone can be born again with the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ, then maybe the 144,000 theory is not true.

John 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

1 John 4:15
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

 

[Deeje]

1Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

“For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. . . .but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.”

You can read over some simple truths when you have a certain focus.....

Here we have 'wisdom' and 'foolishness' contrasted. The world thinks it is wise to dismiss the “foolishness” of believing in God.....but believers see the “foolishness” of the world in failing to believe in him.

Who are right? Who are the wise ones in reality? Each is convinced of their position. Only God knows the difference. And only God will reveal his truth to those in whom he sees a complete heart. (John 6:44; 65) These will be “called” by him.

If “the world in its wisdom did not know God” and he allowed the “foolishness” of human wisdom to dominate in the world, it is only those who saw God's wisdom in what the world rejected, who will “believe” and be “saved”.

So who can tell the difference? Humans don’t have a good track record when it comes to discerning that difference. How many Jews accepted Jesus as the Christ in the first century? They were convinced by their religious leaders that he was a fake. So what was it that drew certain ones to acknowledge him, in spite of the opposition of their own religious community against him?

The weeds will be eliminated when the angels are sent to gather them out from the wheat and burn them, in the meantime the Church lives with them as it has for 2000 years and those who have been first will be last and those who have been last will be first.

They will indeed....but do the "weeds" know that they are?
What does Jesus tell us?

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:21-23)

Here we have those “weeds” trying to justify themselves to Jesus as if they have to prove to him that they are his disciples......does it work? These ones see themselves as “Christians” in good standing....only to be told that they NEVER were. “NEVER” means “not ever”. How can those who present themselves as Christ’s disciples be guilty of practicing “lawlessness”? What laws are they breaking?

It was foretold that an apostasy would overtake Christianity in the same way that it overtook Judaism.
Christ's return would be preceded by this apostasy...."Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."

Who can recognize when this apostasy began? In his illustration of the "wheat and the weeds" Jesus said that the devil sowed seeds of fake Christianity "while men were sleeping".....either this means that the apostles were no longer standing in the way of it because they had all died (sleeping in death - 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) or because Christianity itself had been overtaken because the ones standing guard had failed to keep the apostates from infecting the flock with false teachings. (2 Peter 2:1-3) In any case, the apostasy took place and Christendom is a product of that apostasy.

It is just like Satan to work hard to cause problems and divisions in Christ's Church and then to set up a system where disagreement is not tolerated and point to Christendom in condemnation.

Satan has no new tactics....everything he does is what he has always done. He already knows it works.
If you compare the situation in the first century with this “time of the end”, you will see very clear parallels.

The Jewish religious system had a long history of trying to incorporate false worship with true worship and time and again, God sent his prophets to correct them, but when it was time for the Messiah to make his appearance, Jesus was not sent to the religious leaders because he knew that they were incorrigible....not redeemable...headed for “Gehenna”. (Matthew 23) It had been hundreds of years since God had sent his prophets to them, and they continued to practice the traditions of men, rather than the truth of God’s word. (Matthew 15:7-9)

The “lost sheep of the house of Israel” were now the target audience for Jesus and his apostles to focus on. These were alienated from a religious system that treated them as unworthy of their time and attention. Jesus used many illustrations using sheep and shepherds to illustrate the role of a shepherd and the value of every precious lamb. These “lost” ones were made to feel valued by the Fine Shepherd whom God had sent to rescue them out of that corrupted system.

Where is the parallel today? We again see a fragmented and corrupt religious system from which many have defected because of their hypocrisy and presenting a facade of righteousness, but in real terms have abandoned true worship in favor of a corrupted one....one thoroughly saturated in the traditions of men.

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’” (Matthew 7:21-23)

So who are these ones whom Jesus rejects outright? Who are not “doing the will of the Father”? What is it that these have failed to do?

 

[Deeje]

I don't think the gospel of the JWs is really the gospel that Jesus taught. It is certainly not in the Bible, as shown by the lack of evidence which you have given for a central teaching of the 144,000.
I guess not that I am recognised as opposition, I will be ignored to an extent. I do ask awkward questions at times but it is meant to show that the Watch Tower is not what you may think and the teachings are not always Biblical.

You are free to believe whatever you wish. No one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father. If what we believe is a delusion, then God will allow us to keep it. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) We will be the last to know.

I'm pleased I had a Catholic upbringing even if my experience as a late teen was that I did not really know the gospel after all those years and I was judgemental. I did not toss out the whole Church however, or as you would call Christendom even if at that time I was approached by SDA and JWs and got confused about what the Bible taught.

Ah, now it becomes clear...you have had some study with JW’s and SDA’s? Were you confused or did you have some long held beliefs that you did not want to part with?
I have had many discussions with people who were so sure that the Bible teaches that all Christians must go to heaven, so that when it is brought to their attention that only a chosen and limited number will achieve that “calling” it is rather confronting. They feel slighted, as if they are somehow not good enough.

When you show them that it’s not a given that all must of necessity go to heaven, they will often go on a crusade to prove that we are wrong.....but the true test of a Christian’s caliber is seeing your place in God’s arrangement and being happy with it. It does not matter to us where we serve the Creator....all are loved and appreciated for their service no matter where it is performed. And since God has chosen them, why would we feel slighted? We all have our part to play as members of a large spiritual family.

It was never in God's first purpose to have any humans in heaven. He already has a heavenly family.....humans were created to live forever on earth, where he placed us in the first instance.

I'm not sure what smear campaigns you are referring to. I have seen plenty of information about the dishonesty of the Watch Tower and other things but they seem mainly honest complaints to me and I wonder why the JWs cannot see that.

I'm sure people heard all about the ‘dishonesty’ of those first disciples of Jesus too.....

The Greek di·aʹbo·los (devil) means “slanderer.”......slander works very well as Jesus and his disciples experienced first hand. (John 15:18-21) Slander is what the devil is expert at....he started off slandering God in the eyes of the woman who believed him.

One-sided sob stories can paint a very bleak picture until you hear the other side of that story...sadly lacking in most of the stories you have heard no doubt. Why do you think judges need to hear both sides of a case before passing judgment? People will believe whatever they want to believe.

But as you say people believe what they want for their own reasons.
I do think it is disgraceful how some people who leave the JWs end up losing their friends and families. That to me seems like a cultish trap that keeps people there when they might otherwise go.

1 Corinthians 5:9-12...
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

2 John 9-10....
"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

If a brother or sister in our ranks had transgressed without repentance, then the scriptures themselves tell us what we should do. We are to remove them from our company.....that means that they are not welcome in our congregations, our homes or to be part of our conversations.

The parable of the prodigal son teaches us something about this. When the man's younger son demanded his inheritance so that he could squander it on immoral living, did the father in that story plead with the son not to go? Did he chase after him with promises of a better, less demanding life if he stayed? No.....he simply gave him what he asked for and let him go.

The son squandered his whole inheritance on immoral living, and in the end all his "friends" disappeared along with his cash. When he was destitute, envying the swine their carob pods, he finally realized where he had been better off....and made up his mind to return home, not expecting a warm welcome but instead offering his services to his father as one of his hired laborers. He realized that he did not deserve to be received back as the son who took for granted what he had, and selfishly abused it.

The whole time this son was away squandering his inheritance, what was the father doing? He was getting on with his life, but had a hole in his heart because his son was virtually "dead" to him. He made no effort to contact him and allowed his son to squander his entire inheritance. But on seeing the son, downcast and destitute returning home, the father ran to meet him, on hearing his humble plea for employment, the father embraced his son who had returned home a different person. He was immediately received back by the father with rejoicing.
That is what disfellowshipping is all about.....these ones do not "lose friends and family" but "choose to leave them" and still have an expectation of being treated the same. We all know the rules when we sign up for baptism.....they are not going to be changed because someone tells a sob story. If you leave, the door is never closed, but you cannot re-enter unless, like the prodigal son, you have learned a lesson. Disfellowshipping separates the humble from the proud....the humble ones return, and the proud just want justification or to get even.
Unless that person wants to "come home" chastened by their experience (and we have literally thousands who have) then they will lose more than their place in the congregation....that is the price you pay for making a vow to God, and then breaking it.

Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 5:4-6....
"Whenever you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it, for he finds no pleasure in the stupid ones. What you vow, pay. 5 Better for you not to vow than to vow and not pay. 6 Do not allow your mouth to cause you to sin, and do not say before the angel that it was a mistake. Why make the true God indignant over what you say so that he has to destroy the work of your hands?"

If you make your bed...you lie in it.

 

[Deeje]

That does not say that no earthly location would be the seat of God's worship.
God has said He will be in Jerusalem forever, new Jerusalem from heave but in the same place.
Ps 132:13,14 For the Lord has chosen Zion;
He has desired it for His habitation.
“This is My resting place forever;
Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.

Speaking of the day when God spoke on Mt Sinai....."Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood." (Hebrew 12:21-24)

This Mt Zion is "heavenly Jerusalem". It is not an earthly location now because God no longer deals with any one nation in any one geographical location.

God's Kingdom is not a Government. Where do you get that idea? The Kingdom may include a Government but all Christians are in the Kingdom.

According to Daniel it is.....

After seeing the march of world powers in the form of a dream image given to King Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel spoke of the kings ruling in the time of the feet of this image.
Starting with Babylon, (the head of gold) God foretold that Medo-Persia would be the next world power, (silver) followed by Greece, (copper) then Rome, (iron) and then Britain and her later (in the time of the end) alliance with the USA (her former children reuniting with their "motherland".) (Feet of iron and clay)

In the "time of the end" the king saw a huge stone cut out of a mountain, (but not by human hands) striking the image on its feet and causing the whole structure to crumble and fall. There was not a vestige of it left.

Daniel went on to say....."In the days of those kings [the ones represented by the feet of iron and clay] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever".

This is God's kingdom putting an end to all failed human kingdoms and replacing them with a permanent kingdom that will stand forever. What do you think a "kingdom" is? It is a "king"and a "dom"ain. Since God's kingdom is going to replace all human rulership, then it is humans who will enjoy God's rulership in the capable hands of his son. (Revelation 21:2-4)

In the fulness of the Kingdom on earth all God's people already have reconciliation to God through Jesus. This is what 2 Cor 5:18 tells us along with other passages. (eg Col 1:19,20)
How is it that your gospel teaches that the great crowd have not even been reconciled to God?
Your gospel does not sound like the gospel in the Bible.

Well, I'm afraid that yours doesn't sound authentic to me.
Full reconciliation with God can only take place when all traces of sin have been eradicated from the human race. Sin is the barrier between us and God. It is why we need the Mediator appointed by God to act as a "go between". We have a promise of reconciliation when the Kingdom has accomplished its work, but until then we will need the High Priest Jesus and his appointed priesthood in heaven to guide us through the next thousand years until that has been accomplished.

I noticed these passage which are inclusive of ANYONE who loves Jesus and the Father, and basically say that the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God will be with them. (John 14: 18-24) There are not 2 Spirits, there is one and the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God and ANYONE can have it. (Eph 4:4-6) If you have the Spirit of Christ and are led by that Spirit of God you belong to Christ and are heirs with Him. (Romans 8:9-17) Everyone can be born again and have God's Spirit in them. See 1John 4:15 and 1 John 5:1.
If the WT does not teach that everyone can be born again with the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ, then maybe the 144,000 theory is not true.

What is the purpose of being "born again"? What does it mean to you?

The promise of being "born again" is "all inclusive" of those who have the "heavenly calling"...but not all Christians do.To be born again means to have a 'rebirth'...going from being a mortal human to an immortal spirit. Not all Christians will experience that because this ruling class is chosen and sealed by God himself. It is not something we can volunteer for.....we who remain on earth will have all the promises of the restoration applied to us, taking us back to what God intended for humankind at the start.

The only ones baptized with holy spirit are those who will rule with Christ in heaven. They are numbered in the Bible....144,000 who have been chosen by God "from among mankind" for a specific role in the Kingdom...that of a "king and a priest". There are no sinners in heaven, so who are they ruling over and for whom do they act as priests?

John 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

These words are directed to those who came out of Judaism or out of the gentile nations into Christ's congregation of disciples. These are all anointed for life in heaven. The world will not see Jesus in the flesh again, but his disciples would join him as spirit beings in the place he went to "prepare" for them.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Yes....one body of Christ...those who make up the 144,000. For them there is 'one Lord, one faith and one baptism'. For those who will become subjects of their rulership on earth, there is also 'one Lord, one faith and one baptism'. Our Lord is the same....our faith is the same, but our baptism is not. We who do not have the "heavenly calling" are not baptized into Christ's death, as those who will die the same death and experience the same resurrection as he did. Our hope is entirely earthly. We will have the same resurrection as Lazarus did....as humans raised back to life on earth, not as spirit beings in heaven. That was never part of God's first purpose....and he always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

"Abba Father" is an intimate term for close bonds of children to their father. It is reserved for God's "sons" who become such by adoption, and who will forego life on earth to be received into heaven in a kingly and priestly role. These are "heirs" with Christ, receiving the same inheritance as he did.

1 John 4:15
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

This especially applied to the Jews because failure to accept Jesus as the Christ would eliminate them from God's future plans. (Matthew 23:37-39)

1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Jesus and his apostles directed their ministry exclusively to the Jews until the conversion of Cornelius. All the Jews who wanted salvation had to 'believe that Jesus was the Christ'. If you loved the Father as the Jews claimed to do, then you also had to love the son.....which they did not.

 

[Brian2]

I believe not all Christians can stand on Mount Zion. There are too many of us.

I have no definite idea about who the 144,000 are apart from knowing that the JWs are wrong about them and the scriptures they say apply to them only from the rest of the New Testament. The 144,000 could be Jews or could be all Christians. The Lamb standing on Mt Zion with the 144,000 could be as symbolic as the number. The standing on Mt Zion could be symbolic.

 

[Brian2]

Ah, now it becomes clear...you have had some study with JW’s and SDA’s? Were you confused or did you have some long held beliefs that you did not want to part with?

No long held beliefs. In those days without the internet and easy access to material for studying the scriptures it was harder to find answers and this can lead to some angst about the truth.
I had long hair in those days and was working in a furniture making factory and had a certain concern about my hair being caught in the router and being torn off and wondering whether I would be able to refuse a transfusion. That was also a concern for a while.

I have had many discussions with people who were so sure that the Bible teaches that all Christians must go to heaven, so that when it is brought to their attention that only a chosen and limited number will achieve that “calling” it is rather confronting. They feel slighted, as if they are somehow not good enough.

It can be easy to confuse people who are not familiar with the Bible but who are still believers. I suppose the fact is that all Christians do go to heaven but then heaven will be on the earth since God and the Lamb will be on the earth in the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven.
The things I am telling you are mainly not little things easy to miss but you refuse to believe the plain teachings of the Bible because you prefer men's teachings,,,,,,,,,,,,,,a certain tickling of the ears and feeling of importance I guess comes along with thinking you have knowledge that has been hidden for 2000 years and is necessary. Sounds a bit like gnosticism in that respect.
Interestingly it is only in what you say about certain scriptures that can make them look as if they are about the 144,000 and that only 144,000 go to heaven. I think I have given you plenty of opportunity to show me why scriptures are about the 144,000 only and how they tell us only 144,000 go to heaven. You have not been able. That is my point.
When it comes to point I missed in a post yesterday but remembered later, Eph 4:4-6 tells us there is one hope that Christians have been called to. There are not 2 hopes unless you let the JW teachings tickly your ears, which is so easy to do.

And since God has chosen them, why would we feel slighted? We all have our part to play as members of a large spiritual family.

We certainly all have our part to play as members of the Body of Christ with Christ as the head. The promise of the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ is for all Christians and is now before the resurrection (John 14:23, 1John 5:1) and is necessary to enter the Kingdom. But if you let someone tell you that the Kingdom is a Government (which is nowhere in scripture and probably nowhere in the dictionary) and that only 144000 are in the Kingdom and even that being born again means to be resurrected as a spirit (using Romans 8:23 which the Watch Tower has changed to suite doctrine) it is understandable given the deceptive practices of the WT. It is less easy to understand why you keep those beliefs when you find that the Bible teaches other things,,,,,,,,,,,,but I have been around long enough to know about confirmation bias and the deceptions of satan etc.

I'm sure people heard all about the ‘dishonesty’ of those first disciples of Jesus too.....

The Greek di·aʹbo·los (devil) means “slanderer.”......slander works very well as Jesus and his disciples experienced first hand. (John 15:18-21) Slander is what the devil is expert at....he started off slandering God in the eyes of the woman who believed him.

I prefer to use just scripture to show people the truth, but that does not work. I have heard it is good to show JWs that the WT is dishonest so that you do not trust them but start trusting what the Bible actually tells us and just look at it without the buzzing of JW doctrine to guide you. But once that teaching is there, that is the way you keep reading the scriptures no matter what they say.
When it comes to slander the WT is the biggest slanderer of all from my reading of Watch Tower Magazines when they talk about Christendom.

One-sided sob stories can paint a very bleak picture until you hear the other side of that story...sadly lacking in most of the stories you have heard no doubt. Why do you think judges need to hear both sides of a case before passing judgment? People will believe whatever they want to believe.

I have heard that the WT change year books etc so that people do not see the mistaken predictions and other mistakes of bygone years. This is true. I have also heard the reason the WT has given for this.
I can see the dishonesty on the WT in their Bible translation. I can see the dishonesty of the Watch Tower in their quotes of church fathers. I can see the dishonesty of the Watch Tower in their use of quotes from scholars. And of course there would be more that I have just forgotten about. The problem seems to be that JWs trust the WT so much and have an us and them mentality with everyone else who offers advice and facts as being of the devil, especially when they oppose God's only source of truth for these last days. There is a JW bubble and the WT seems to do all it can to keep a lot of truth about the WT and what they teach out of that bubble so that the average JW keeps focus on the WT "truth".



1 Corinthians 5:9-12...
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

2 John 9-10....
"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

If a brother or sister in our ranks had transgressed without repentance, then the scriptures themselves tell us what we should do. We are to remove them from our company.....that means that they are not welcome in our congregations, our homes or to be part of our conversations.

2John 9,10 is talking about strangers and not friends and family.
1Cor 5:9-12 seems to be misapplied by the JWs with their practice of shunning and it's application for family members especially.
Do you think that it is not wise to adjust church discipline to different places and times in history instead of following advice in the Bible as if it is a command from God for all time and places.
I guess the WT does that with the blood prohibition for the early church also as if it is a command for all Christians for all time, and then applying it to transfusions also. In both these things it's like going back under law and in so doing, going to extent of ignoring the more important things of the law.

The parable of the prodigal son teaches us something about this. When the man's younger son demanded his inheritance so that he could squander it on immoral living, did the father in that story plead with the son not to go? Did he chase after him with promises of a better, less demanding life if he stayed? No.....he simply gave him what he asked for and let him go.

Who said not to discipline? Who said to relax the scriptures?

That is what disfellowshipping is all about.....these ones do not "lose friends and family" but "choose to leave them" and still have an expectation of being treated the same. We all know the rules when we sign up for baptism.....they are not going to be changed because someone tells a sob story.

It is less harsh than the Mafia or Islam I guess but only marginally so. It's like the Hotel California, you can enter any time you like but you can never leave.
How does church discipline apply to people who have decided that they no longer believe? Discipline does not bring people like that back and shunning just shows lack of love.

If you make your bed...you lie in it.

Blaming the victims of the WT's wrong policy does not seem right. It certainly shows the hold the only source of God's truth has over people when they disown their children and spouses because they do not believe any more.
Wouldn't you say it works on fear and intimidation to an extent and if you for example decided that the teachings of the WT were wrong you would not be free to move on because it would mean a lot more than just moving on from one belief to another.

 

[Brian2]

Speaking of the day when God spoke on Mt Sinai....."Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood." (Hebrew 12:21-24)

This Mt Zion is "heavenly Jerusalem". It is not an earthly location now because God no longer deals with any one nation in any one geographical location.

"a Mt Zion", interesting translation.
It is a heavenly city yes but it comes down out of heaven to earth (as the scriptures tell us) to the place where God has decided to dwell forever. It is the New Jerusalem.

This is God's kingdom putting an end to all failed human kingdoms and replacing them with a permanent kingdom that will stand forever. What do you think a "kingdom" is? It is a "king"and a "dom"ain. Since God's kingdom is going to replace all human rulership, then it is humans who will enjoy God's rulership in the capable hands of his son. (Revelation 21:2-4)

I don't see anything in your Daniel quote or the rest which shows a Kingdom means a Government. Did I miss something? A King rules over a Kingdom, yes I know that.

Well, I'm afraid that yours doesn't sound authentic to me.
Full reconciliation with God can only take place when all traces of sin have been eradicated from the human race. Sin is the barrier between us and God. It is why we need the Mediator appointed by God to act as a "go between". We have a promise of reconciliation when the Kingdom has accomplished its work, but until then we will need the High Priest Jesus and his appointed priesthood in heaven to guide us through the next thousand years until that has been accomplished.

You are saying that the 144,000 have been reconciled to God in an instant, by the blood of Jesus and have been made perfect with no sin. Why would God not do that for all Christians, since after all the Bible tells us that since it is speaking to Christians and not just a part of those Christians. It is Christians who are the firstfruit not just 144,000 of them. You have not been able to tell me how you know the reconciliation and so many other things applies to just 144,000 except that it is the Watch Tower interpretation of some passages in Revelations and so it must be true.
Romans 5:9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.…

No, sorry Great Crowd none of that applies to you because the Watch Tower told us so.

What is the purpose of being "born again"? What does it mean to you?
The promise of being "born again" is "all inclusive" of those who have the "heavenly calling"...but not all Christians do.To be born again means to have a 'rebirth'...going from being a mortal human to an immortal spirit. Not all Christians will experience that because this ruling class is chosen and sealed by God himself. It is not something we can volunteer for.....we who remain on earth will have all the promises of the restoration applied to us, taking us back to what God intended for humankind at the start.

The only ones baptized with holy spirit are those who will rule with Christ in heaven. They are numbered in the Bible....144,000 who have been chosen by God "from among mankind" for a specific role in the Kingdom...that of a "king and a priest". There are no sinners in heaven, so who are they ruling over and for whom do they act as priests?

Being born again is something the Bible tells us happens now when we are living. Didn't you read 1 John 5:1 or 1John 4:15, it happens now and the Spirit of God lives in anyone who believes Jesus is the Son of God. Not only that but if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation,,,,,,,,,,now.
2Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away;
We have all been justified and reconciled to God through Jesus the Prince of Peace.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Jesus and the Father come to dwell in anyone who loves Jesus and keeps His word.
John 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
We are joined spiritually to Christ and that is why He is our head in the body.
All this is in this life when our spirit is born again. (it is amazing how one doctrine links to another and so if we get one wrong a few others go down the wrong way also).
Indeed if we have not the Holy Spirit guiding us in this life we cannot please God because we are still in the flesh.
Romans 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.
(and it goes on to say that all who are led by the Spirit are children of God and heirs with Christ).
With this spiritual rebirth we are learning to control our carnal nature of the body and mind already and we are getting to know God intimately because He lives in us.
So we have a spiritual rebirth in this life and our bodies also have a rebirth at the resurrection. This happened to Jesus and it happens to all those in Christ. Our bodies are redeemed and transformed and we put on incorruption and immortality.
(and yes the Watch Tower changed the scripture at Romans 8:23 to hide the fact that the bodies of their anointed class are redeemed.)

continued....

 

[Brian2]

These words are directed to those who came out of Judaism or out of the gentile nations into Christ's congregation of disciples. These are all anointed for life in heaven. The world will not see Jesus in the flesh again, but his disciples would join him as spirit beings in the place he went to "prepare" for them.

Yawn. It's all nothing except gobbledygook from the Watch Tower unless you can show that most of the New Testament does not apply to all Christians.

Yes....one body of Christ...those who make up the 144,000. For them there is 'one Lord, one faith and one baptism'. For those who will become subjects of their rulership on earth, there is also 'one Lord, one faith and one baptism'. Our Lord is the same....our faith is the same, but our baptism is not. We who do not have the "heavenly calling" are not baptized into Christ's death, as those who will die the same death and experience the same resurrection as he did. Our hope is entirely earthly. We will have the same resurrection as Lazarus did....as humans raised back to life on earth, not as spirit beings in heaven. That was never part of God's first purpose....and he always finishes what he starts. (Isaiah 55:11)

It does say there is "one hope" also. You do realise you are explaining away what the scriptures tell us don't you.
Since God and the Lamb will be here on earth dwelling with their people as King, so the 144,000 and the great crowd will be here with their immortal and incorruptible bodies, one like the one Jesus rose in, both spiritual and physical in nature and able to be controlled by our spirit.
Where is there even a mention of a different type of resurrection body?
Why can't the Christians be ruling over everyone else who did not end up being Christians if you must have them ruling over someone.

This especially applied to the Jews because failure to accept Jesus as the Christ would eliminate them from God's future plans. (Matthew 23:37-39)

1 John 4:15
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

This actually seems to apply to "whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God".

Jesus and his apostles directed their ministry exclusively to the Jews until the conversion of Cornelius. All the Jews who wanted salvation had to 'believe that Jesus was the Christ'. If you loved the Father as the Jews claimed to do, then you also had to love the son.....which they did not.

I think John was supposed to be writing against gnosticism, and I find it hard to understand what he writes at times BUT 1John 5:1 certainly applies to "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ".
1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

We could combine 1John 4:15 and 1John 5:1 and get something that reminds me of John 20:31.
John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
We could take another step to find out what John meant by Jesus being the Christ the Son of God and look at John 20:28,29 if you want.
John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Deeje]

@Brian2......there is no point to further exchange. You and I are both resolute in our beliefs. I will let my posts stand, as I believe we have covered many subjects. Your responses tell me that you don’t know as much as you think you do about JW’s. But that’s OK. Not everyone who claims Jesus as their Lord will pass the judgment, so its very important to understand what God requires of us, not what “label” we are wearing. It’s about “doing” not just “talking”.

There is one truth....just as there was only one ark that saved one family in Noah’s day. No one who was outside of that ark, survived.

There is only one road that leads to life and “few” will find it because the journey is difficult.....”cramped” and “narrow”. (Matthew 7:13-14) Jesus appointed a “faithful slave” to feed his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time” in these “last days”......so who is that slave and if we are not feeding on what he provides, the food we are eating is from the sower of the “weeds”. He is a slanderer, a liar, and a deceiver.....so we have to be responsive to the message that Jesus said would be preached in all the world. (Matthew 24:14) Who is preaching it?

I am as confident in my decision today, as I was 50 years ago when I abandoned Christendom.

I have identified my religious beliefs, and their source, but I don’t recall you identifying yours specifically....? Is there somewhere I can go to online to check out your denomination’s teachings?

“Doing the will of the Father” is what it’s all about......so, who is doing it? (Matthew 7:21-23)....not the “many” who make their excuses, apparently.

Won’t it be interesting to witness what’s coming....? We will all find out then....so, I wonder who will be on the receiving end of Jesus’ rejection? He is the judge after all....and if no one comes to Jesus without an invitation from his Father, (John 6:65) then no one will actually know for sure until then. The easiest person on earth to fool then....is ourselves. Sad, isn’t it? God simply gives us all “enough rope”....we choose how to use that rope.

 

[Brian2]

@Brian2
There is one truth....just as there was only one ark that saved one family in Noah’s day. No one who was outside of that ark, survived.

It is Jesus who is the Truth and Jesus is not restricted to one organisation which proudly claims to be the only agency through which God is working these days. Relatively minor differences in doctrine are not that important, it is the differences which mean a different gospel and different Jesus which matter.

He is a slanderer, a liar, and a deceiver.....so we have to be responsive to the message that Jesus said would be preached in all the world. (Matthew 24:14) Who is preaching it?

The JW gospel of the Kingdom certainly is not what we see in the Bible as the gospel of the Kingdom that was preached by the apostles and which had one hope for all Christians.

I am as confident in my decision today, as I was 50 years ago when I abandoned Christendom.

You have been a JW for a while and lived to see "new light" in various teachings and have lived through times in WT history where people were leaving because of wrong predictions from the WT and subsequent back downs and new light. It amazes me that JW do not see that all these mistakes and changes in teaching means that the "old light" was actually darkness and that the WT was not feeding the sheep it's proper food at the right time.
No longer do we see the slogan on the front of the Watchtower Mag which said something like, "Millions now living will never die". No longer is the generation of 1914 what it was taught as being. No longer (as far as I know) do we see the WT making bold assertions about the end being in a certain year.
All very interesting and puzzling from an outsider's pov. Puzzling because so many JWs stay loyal to the organisation that has been feeding them lies. Our loyalty should be to God not to an organisation.

I have identified my religious beliefs, and their source, but I don’t recall you identifying yours specifically....? Is there somewhere I can go to online to check out your denomination’s teachings?

I attend a local mainstream church because it was the closest church to where I was living. It is Anglican.

“Doing the will of the Father” is what it’s all about......so, who is doing it? (Matthew 7:21-23)....not the “many” who make their excuses, apparently.

The will of the Father is whatever the WT tells you it is and JWs have missed out on education and normal family life because of that, only to find that the WT was wrong and Armageddon was not in the following few years. The Bible tells us we all have different roles in the Body of Christ. Loyalty to a man made organisation instead of to the teachings of the Bible and teaching the WT interpretations when you can see they are Biblically wrong must be difficult for people who want to do the right thing.
See you around.

 

[Muffled]

The "New Jerusalem" is not on earth, nor is God's Temple, of which the earthly one was a type or shadow. The priesthood who will serve in God's grand spiritual temple are no longer humans, but resurrected "first" as spirit beings in order to join Christ in the "place" he went to "prepare" for them. (John 13:33, 36; John 14:2-4; Revelation 20:6)

Jesus already indicated to the Samaritan woman that no earthly location would be the seat of God's worship in the future.

John 4:21-24...
"Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

In Revelation 21:1-4...."New Jerusalem" is seen "coming down out of heaven" bringing the blessings of God's Kingdom to mankind. Its a heavenly government sent to rule God's people and to bring them back into reconciliation with God. (2 Corinthians 5:18)

The book of Revelations does say it descends to earth but I would leave the door open for it not to be the third rock from Sol.

I believe John 13:33 does not say spirit beings and 36 says they will follow but does not say as spirit beings. John 14:2-4 does not say spirit beings. Rev. 14:6 says resurrection which means a return to a body so that is not spirit beings either.

I believe it is improper reasoning to say that eliminating certain individual places means the whole earth is eliminated.