Question to Protestants: is Martin Luther Christian?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Inspired by this thread: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

A question for the Christians - especially Protestants in one of the traditions that traces back to Martin Luther - who consider Hitler "not Christian":

If Hitler's antisemitism is enough to make him not Christian, what about the author of this?

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy.

[...]

I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians.

[...]

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.

[...]

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home.

[...]

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess.

[...]

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]).

[...]

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews.

On the Jews and Their Lies

 

[Augustus]

If Hitler's antisemitism is enough to make him not Christian, what about the author of this?

It wasn't his anti-Semitism that has lead almost every historian to think Hitler wasn't a Christian but his words and actions providing very significant evidence he wasn't a Christian.

Inspired by this thread: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

A question for the Christians - especially Protestants in one of the traditions that traces back to Martin Luther - who consider Hitler "not Christian":

If Hitler's antisemitism is enough to make him not Christian, what about the author of this?



On the Jews and Their Lies

While both are obviously contemptible, there is still a substantial difference between the views that should be noted for context.

Luther's anti-semitism was based on Jews being a religious group who could be 'redeemed' by being brought into the 'true faith'.

Hitler's anti-Semitism was based on 'scientific' racialist ideas were Jews could not change their genetics so would always be a threat to German 'racial purity'.

It is worse to think of a group as being a threat by their very existence, rather than a threat because of beliefs that can be changed. Obviously, that doesn't excuse the rank anti-semitism though.

 

[Deeje]

Inspired by this thread: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

Adolf Hitler was not a Christian....NOT because he was anti-Semitic, but because he was a genocidal murderer. The Catholic church backed him up, proving that they were not Christians either. (John 17:16; James 4:4)

A question for the Christians - especially Protestants in one of the traditions that traces back to Martin Luther - who consider Hitler "not Christian":

If Hitler's antisemitism is enough to make him not Christian, what about the author of this?

On the Jews and Their Lies

It helps to have a wider view of these questions IMO.....anti-Semitism stems from an intense dislike of those who denied Jesus as the Christ, and orchestrated his death.....did God love them for that? I don't think so. Jesus didn't think so either. (Matthew 23:37-39)

It was the religious leaders of the day whom Jesus condemned because it was they who led the people to clamor for his death and claim responsibility for shedding his blood. (Matthew 27:23-26) It was the Romans who executed Jesus, but only because the Jews had threatened Pilate's political career.

Contrary to popular belief, it was not the Jews whom Jesus begged his Father to forgive, because he had already consigned them to "Gehenna". (Matthew 23:13-15; 33; Luke 23:33-34)

Was Jesus anti-Semitic? Is the Bible therefore anti-Semitic when it criticizes the Jews for their repeated departures from pure worship? Was God anti-Semitic when he wanted to exterminate this stiff-necked people? (Exodus 32:9-10)

Martin Luther saw corruption in his church and spoke out about it.....he was certainly more "Christian" than those who were promoting false worship and extorting money from those who sought to pay for forgiveness. These persecuted and excommunicated him for telling the truth. He was responsible for toppling the Catholic church off the pedestal upon which it had perched itself. All those who gained access to the Bible through his efforts are grateful to him.

 

[ChristineM]

I really don't think it is anyone's prerogative to decide another persons religion for them.

If someone's believes they are of a particular faith and acts on what the understand that faith teaches how can anyone else dictate their beliefs

This he/she is not a true _________ (fill in the blank) because they don't worship like me is very egotistical.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Inspired by this thread: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

A question for the Christians - especially Protestants in one of the traditions that traces back to Martin Luther - who consider Hitler "not Christian":

If Hitler's antisemitism is enough to make him not Christian, what about the author of this?

On the Jews and Their Lies

One must also take into account the historical context of when something was written and the overall aim of the author in question.

When responding to your question, one should do the following comparison of a) and b):

a) What was Luther fighting for in the 1500’s (and what role did he claim the Jews to have in it)?

b) What was Hitler fighting for in the 1930/40’s (and what role did he claim the Jews to have in it)?

Was what they were fighting for, Christian?


Humbly
Hermit

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Adolf Hitler was not a Christian....NOT because he was anti-Semitic, but because he was a genocidal murderer. The Catholic church backed him up, proving that they were not Christians either. (John 17:16; James 4:4)

It helps to have a wider view of these questions IMO.....anti-Semitism stems from an intense dislike of those who denied Jesus as the Christ, and orchestrated his death.....did God love them for that? I don't think so. Jesus didn't think so either. (Matthew 23:37-39)

It was the religious leaders of the day whom Jesus condemned because it was they who led the people to clamor for his death and claim responsibility for shedding his blood. (Matthew 27:23-26) It was the Romans who executed Jesus, but only because the Jews had threatened Pilate's political career.

Contrary to popular belief, it was not the Jews whom Jesus begged his Father to forgive, because he had already consigned them to "Gehenna". (Matthew 23:13-15; 33; Luke 23:33-34)

Was Jesus anti-Semitic? Is the Bible therefore anti-Semitic when it criticizes the Jews for their repeated departures from pure worship? Was God anti-Semitic when he wanted to exterminate this stiff-necked people? (Exodus 32:9-10)

Martin Luther saw corruption in his church and spoke out about it.....he was certainly more "Christian" than those who were promoting false worship and extorting money from those who sought to pay for forgiveness. These persecuted and excommunicated him for telling the truth. He was responsible for toppling the Catholic church off the pedestal upon which it had perched itself. All those who gained access to the Bible through his efforts are grateful to him.

I didn't expect a "Hitler had some good ideas, but he went a bit too far"-type response in this thread.

Edit: I may have given you too much credit. Seems like your position is more like "Hitler was right, but genocide is God's job."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I really don't think it is anyone's prerogative to decide another persons religion for them.

If someone's believes they are of a particular faith and acts on what the understand that faith teaches how can anyone else dictate their beliefs

This he/she is not a true _________ (fill in the blank) because they don't worship like me is very egotistical.

Sure, but this thread is directed to people who have shown that they're okay with labelling people "not Christian."

 

[Brickjectivity]

Here is a man considered by many to be a righteous zealot, a man of God. Does this condemn Christianity as false? Not Christianity particularly, however Christianity did fail in this. This man's spiritual fruit is rotten. I've been snubbed by Jews before but also invited. Snubbing happens generally for reasons that nobody has to explain. Its how you take it. If you're snubbed, just roll with it. Martin Luther shows his real self, that he has very little discernment, very little self control; and it is the Jews who reveal it to their peril.

He's very imaginative about what he thinks Jews think. Part I of his booklet says "...if their Messiah, for whom they hope, should come...they would crucify and blaspheme him seven times worse...; " His paranoia is contagious. I can feel it seeping into me, making me curious about what he is talking about. What is it he knows about Jews? I want to know, too! But, Martin Luther is just mean. Even if he knows something bad about Jews its not worth our while to wade through all of his nasty toxins. He will corrupt us, even if we don't believe him or accept him. We'll be dirtied. His hate calls to our hate.

I'm not that familiar with Martin Luther, but I don't think he dwells much on any particular victim. Instead I think he just doesn't care about anyone very much and has no problem with torturing people who disagree about theological matters. Writing nasty letters seems to be one of his favorite things. In his booklet in support of his claims about Jews he claims to read Paul of Burgos who is a Jewish convert to catholicism and becomes an archbishop. He also claims Nicholas of Lyra. So, according to Martin Luther these are the people he gets his ideas from, but his vicious nature is his own. His propensity to violence and disrespect for others is his own.

 

[ChristineM]

Sure, but this thread is directed to people who have shown that they're okay with labelling people "not Christian."

Bows out gracefully

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Dear @Deeje

Right before reading your comment, I’d written something on a thread about when to intervene regarding someone’s beliefs. I think this is a phenomenal example of when to do so!

QUOTE="Deeje, post: 7130716, member: 18814"]anti-Semitism stems from an intense dislike of those who denied Jesus as the Christ, and orchestrated his death.....[/QUOTE]

Do you truly think that Hitler (who the post is partly about) gave a toss about “denying Jesus as Christ and orchestrating his death”...? Are you suggesting that as Hitler’s motive?


Humbly
Hermit

 

[David1967]

Inspired by this thread: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

A question for the Christians - especially Protestants in one of the traditions that traces back to Martin Luther - who consider Hitler "not Christian":

If Hitler's antisemitism is enough to make him not Christian, what about the author of this?



On the Jews and Their Lies

According to Luther's writing here, Hitler must have been a fan of his.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

is Martin Luther Christian?

I'm not a Protestant, but I'd like to discuss the definition of Christian, especially the difference between the believer's definition and the outsider's.

Christian frequently define a Christian according to their behavior. If they disapprove, then that person was not a "true Christian." But that's not a useful definition to the unbeliever.

One I've seen is that a Christian is anybody Christ admits into heaven. Only God can answer that question.

That's an even less useful definition to the unbeliever, and probably to the believer as well.

Somebody might say that a Christian is anyone who believes the central tenet of Christianity. But that's also not a useful definition to me.

I use the definition used to decide how many Christians (or Muslims, or Buddhists) there are in the world, about 2.4 billion at last count. What is a Christian in this context? Anybody who self-identifies as one. Non-Christians are not interested in what their specific theology is, or how Christlike their lives are, so those factors don't enter into their definitions of Christians.

By this reckoning, Luther, Hitler, and Trump were all Christians because they said so, just as I am not a Christian because I say so. Nobody is going to grill me to see if I believe in sin and redemption, or if I love God with all my heart to see if I am actually a stealth or unknowing Christian, for example, or a "true secular humanist."

To say that these people were not Christian because they promoted hateful, immoral agendas is to define true Christians as good people, also not a definition I have any use for. To me, true Christians are the real ones out there, the ones I see, including the white evangelists who voted for Trump, a vengeful, hateful, angry, violence promoting serial adulterer and sexual predator - not just the moral subset who rejected that. Not very Christlike of them, but that doesn't make them not Christians to an outsider looking in.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

According to Luther's writing here, Hitler must have been a fan of his.

Yes - Hitler quoted Luther heavily in Mein Kampf.

 

[David1967]

Yes - Hitler quoted Luther heavily in Mein Kampf.

That letter seemed to point to Luther having concentration camps in mind.

 

[Augustus]

That letter seemed to point to Luther having concentration camps in mind.

Luther was very conceited and believed once he'd removed the "stain" of Roman corruption from Christianity then the Jews would be persuaded to convert to his "true Christianity".

He was initially "friendly" to the Jewish people and only became virulently antisemitic when it became clear they weren't going to convert en masse.

Unlike Hitler though his goal remained to convert the Jews, so the harsh measures he advocated were meant to "encourage" them to see "the error of their ways" .

According to Luther's writing here, Hitler must have been a fan of his.

He saw him as a good nationalist.

Racial antisemitism as the Nazis promoted had different origins though .

For example:

Georg Ritter von Schönerer - Wikipedia

Wilhelm Marr - Wikipedia

Arthur de Gobineau - Wikipedia

Eugen Dühring - Wikipedia

 

[1213]

Inspired by this thread: Question to Catholics: Is Adolf Hitler a Christian?

A question for the Christians - especially Protestants in one of the traditions that traces back to Martin Luther - who consider Hitler "not Christian":

If Hitler's antisemitism is enough to make him not Christian, what about the author of this?
...

Originally Christian meant a disciple of Jesus and a disciple of Jesus is a person who remains in the words of Jesus.

…in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

I don’t know did Luther do that. But, by what I know, he seems to have done that better than many. If Jews around him lied and blasphemed, I think it is not antisemitism to say it is wrong and that Christians should not do such things.

 

[Deeje]

I didn't expect a "Hitler had some good ideas, but he went a bit too far"-type response in this thread.

I didn’t really expect more of you than this, Penguin....you seem to twist anything that disagrees with your own view of things. Is this what you think I said?

Anti-Semitism is a strange charge to bring against Christians when Jesus Christ himself had nothing good to say about the Jewish leadership of his day. (Matthew 23) He was not sent to the Pharisees, but to their victims. Jesus became one of them. Sorry if that is an inconvenient truth. I can’t change history, nor can I alter scripture to tell a different story.

Reading through Jewish history, recorded in their own scripture, we find that God himself was prone to reprimand and punished them on a regular basis, none of which was unwarranted. God tired of their stubborn disobedience. His patience had its limits as our scripture clearly indicates. As soon as he had fulfilled his obligation to bring his Messiah to the world, their response to him resulted in his response to them. (Matthew 23:37-39)

I have no animosity towards Jewish people or people of any religious persuasion personally.....everyone has the freedom to choose.....but I can disagree strongly with their beliefs when they conflict with my own.....just like you do.
I do not take the position that “all roads lead to Rome”.....according to Christ there is one truth, and only two roads to choose from....a difficult one that leads to life, and an easy one that leads to death....and every single one of us is on one road or the other. (Matthew 7:13-14) Jesus, as God’s appointed judge, will decide who is on the right one. I trust him. You can trust whomever you wish.....

Edit: I may have given you too much credit. Seems like your position is more like "Hitler was right, but genocide is God's job."

Good grief!

As far as genocide is concerned.....God is the Creator of life and the sole arbiter of who gets to keep it and who doesn’t.....if you have a problem with that, I suggest you take your grievances to his “Complaints Dept.” Unfortunately for the complainers....it doesn’t exist.

 

[Deeje]

Dear @Deeje

Right before reading your comment, I’d written something on a thread about when to intervene regarding someone’s beliefs. I think this is a phenomenal example of when to do so!

“anti-Semitism stems from an intense dislike of those who denied Jesus as the Christ, and orchestrated his death.....”

And here is another example of someone misinterpreting what I said.....out of all that I wrote, why did you isolate that without including the rest. That was simply an explanation as to why anti-Semitism exists in the minds of many Christians. The first Christians would have held immense animosity towards those who orchestrated the death of their teacher....not because he committed any crime, but because he told an inconvenient truth. Jesus himself condemned them. You can’t accuse Christians of being anti-Semitic without accusing Jesus as well. But nothing will justify that animosity turning into retaliation or violence.

The actions are what you dislike, not the people. Do you understand that this is what God does? By hating the sin and not the sinner, God makes room for the sinner to change his ways and to bring his thinking and actions into harmony with His stated requirements.

Do you truly think that Hitler (who the post is partly about) gave a toss about “denying Jesus as Christ and orchestrating his death”...? Are you suggesting that as Hitler’s motive?

Again, you did not really read what I said. Hitler’s hatred of the Jews was personal. His plan to eliminate them served his own agenda and he manipulated his people by propaganda to hate them too. Hitler did not give a toss about anyone but himself....like many who had gone before him, the power of his position thoroughly corrupted him and he became a megalomaniac like other dictatorial despots. But the interesting thing about these despots is that, without the full cooperation and support of their minions, they would have been powerless.

I believe that the devil operates the same way. Propaganda works. Hate can spread like gangrene when you can persuade others to join in and make it appear to be a good and justifiable thing, when it is actually evil.....it can turn friends and neighbors, and even family members, into enemies. There is no excuse to “hate” or harm anyone, but you can hate what they do, and disagree strongly with what they believe.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Since Jesus is the one who started the club, with His Father’s authority .... shouldn’t His words have the most say? “You are my friends if you do what I command.” — John 15:14, NIV
Is a command, something you can do if you want, or something that needs doing? (I think everyone here, knows what ‘command’ means.)
Did He command His followers to hate others, or be apathetic toward others, or to love others? — John 15:17; John 13:34-35. Even a Christian’s enemies should not go hungry in a Christian’s hands. — Matthew 5:44

Consider that Jesus also said, He’d kick out certain ones from His club! (Matthew 7:21-23) Why? Apparently, they weren’t obedient. They weren’t “doing the will of the Father,” following His Son’s example.

By Jesus’ own standards, it should be obvious, who is & who isn’t.... they either qualify or disqualify themselves through their actions.

We all fall short; we make mistakes. But making occasional mistakes is not a disqualification, rather how we behave in general.... our reputation.
Are we known as angry? Vengeful? Haters? Bigots? Yes, even sexual immoral? Or is the reputation we have built, one of being mild-tempered? Forgiving? People-lovers, despite race or nationality?

In short, a Christian should exhibit these latter qualities, and is someone we should enjoy spending time with.

Matthew 11:28-30

If we identify as Christian, are we these things for the most part?

 

[thomas t]

anti-Semitism stems from an intense dislike of those who denied Jesus as the Christ, and orchestrated his death.....did God love them for that?

This is an attempt at explaining anti-Semitism in general, as I see it.

However, by doing this you're lumping the Jews of back then together with those of today, as I see it.
This is anti-semitic itself, as I see it.
To me, your quote comes across as saying "if their ancestors killed him 2000 years ago, they would kill him today, too"... or it's like saying "they're all Messiah-killers!"