Question?

[SirKnight1788]

Is there a real need for Christians to observe the ancient Judaic laws and observe all Jewish rituals icluding the food laws?

Was this issue not settled by St Paul centuries ago?

 

[James the Persian]

Is there a real need for Christians to observe the ancient Judaic laws and observe all Jewish rituals icluding the food laws?

Was this issue not settled by St Paul centuries ago?

No. The Council of Jerusalem, in Acts, is where the issue of the old Jewish law was settled. Not sure what Messianic Jews make of that, though.

James

 

[SirKnight1788]

No. The Council of Jerusalem, in Acts, is where the issue of the old Jewish law was settled. Not sure what Messianic Jews make of that, though.

James

Thank You James.

The Council of Jerusalem in Acts that was it!

 

[Emmalyn]

No. The Council of Jerusalem, in Acts, is where the issue of the old Jewish law was settled. Not sure what Messianic Jews make of that, though.

James

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Acts 15:18-21

Actually it wasn't 'settled' in the manner that most christians take it (as in doing away with the law except for 4 rules).

The Jerusalem Council were all devout Torah abiding Jews, as was Paul. If they taught against Torah, they were false teachers. If you read these passages, it's pretty apparent that they did not want to overwhelm these new followers of the Messiah by overloading them with the law. These 4 laws were the minimum necessary for the Gentiles to go into the synagogue without offending the Jews. It was expected that once they started going into the synagogue, they would hear the Torah and understand and choose to observe all of God's commandments as they grew in their faith.

Emmalyn

 

[Ronald]

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Acts 15:18-21

Actually it wasn't 'settled' in the manner that most christians take it (as in doing away with the law except for 4 rules).

The Jerusalem Council were all devout Torah abiding Jews, as was Paul. If they taught against Torah, they were false teachers. If you read these passages, it's pretty apparent that they did not want to overwhelm these new followers of the Messiah by overloading them with the law. These 4 laws were the minimum necessary for the Gentiles to go into the synagogue without offending the Jews. It was expected that once they started going into the synagogue, they would hear the Torah and understand and choose to observe all of God's commandments as they grew in their faith.

Emmalyn

Amen, the new member was given a temporary "BYE" til he learns and puts himself in the keeping of the commandnents. Saved by faith, become eligible for "election" by doing the will of God. Mt. 7:21

 

[elisheba]

The Torah says over and over how the laws are for our benefit.

 

[Dena]

I don't believe all the Laws were intended for Gentiles. If you are Jewish and converting to Christianity, well, that is an entirely different subject.

 

[Zardoz]

I don't believe all the Laws were intended for Gentiles. If you are Jewish and converting to Christianity, well, that is an entirely different subject.

Yes, not all laws.

Sorry it took so long to respond, Shabbat, you know. From the other post, this is a DIR (Discuss Individual Religion) and you probably notice by now there isn't one for the Noachide faith. I pray there will be one soon.

A bit of background on this Messianic DIR. It was originally under the Christian DIR group, therefore you will see a lot of threads like this one, started by Christians and with many posts by Christians. Not so much anymore. There are not a lot of Messianic Jews on RF but most of us identify ourselves as Jews, not Christians. Just an FYI, as these Christian threads in the DIR still draw posters from time to time, bumping them. I ignore most of them, as the old threads aren't really about Messianic Judaism.

 

[Mark L Malone]

Every aspect of the Law was never observed so one could get "saved". Yahowshua(Jesus)'s Law is supposed to be a testimony unto Himself. The brit chadasha(new testament) reveals that all aspects of the Law given to Moshe(moses) was to be to PATTERN, because it revealed the true image of the one in YHWH's presence. Its referred to as a "shadow", and no ones shadow leaves them when the Light shines upon them. Does this mean we have to offer blood on the altar? No, these things were intended for the faithful to used through faith, and if no faith in a persons life in YHWH and his promises, than no amount of blood, or fruits, or thanxgiving, would ever make one atoned for in the presence of YAH. This is a very good subject, but unfortunately what happens is that so many are brought up in church theology, they get very defensive over what "church" teaches, or taught, and cant come to grips with the fact that our faith, is 100% jewish, and I dont mean the faith of the Rabbinical Judaism religion, which is the true sect of the faith of YAH.

 

[ayani]

well, as i understand it, Jews who come to believe in Jesus as the Messiah and who have always had some connection to the mitzvot may continue to follow Jewish law as Christians / Messianic Jews.

"Christian" and "Messianic" mean the same thing any way, in different languages. the tie that religious Jews have to the Torah is very strong, as are ties to the mitzvot therein. there's no reason a Mesianic Jew can't follow the Law if they want to, but it's generally understood that one is saved or made a completed Jew by faith in Jesus (Yeshua), and that following the Law afterwards is possible, but that not all Messianic Jews do this.

 

[Zardoz]

..."Christian" and "Messianic" mean the same thing any way, in different languages. ..., but it's generally understood that one is saved or made a completed Jew by faith in Jesus (Yeshua), and that following the Law afterwards is possible, but that not all Messianic Jews do this.

Not to debate in a DIR, but you identify yourself as Christian and not a Jew of any type so have no right to say what a Messianic Jew is or isn't. :no:

I disagree with the OP and what I have quoted above, I am a Messianic Jew but no Christian of any type, period. A true Messianic Jew understands that Mitzvot are not made optional by following Yeshua's teachings, but are made even more beautiful and holy and meaningful.

 

[ayani]

Zardor ~

but am i free to report back what i have heard from other Messianic Jews, observed in how different communities identify, etc.?

i'm not claiming to speak for Messianic Jews or as one, but the truth is that diversity exists within that community. not all Messianic Jews follow the Torah laws, and some do feel more comfortable spiritually in a church than in a Messianic synangogue. many believrs do follow the Torah Laws faithfully, and form their own communities, too. still fully Jewish, and yet often rejected by the rest of the Jewish community and not alining themselves with Christians, either.

i don't claim to be a Messianic Jew because..... i'm not Jewish. nor can i ever be. i'm a Gentile who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah, and who has trusted Him for salvation. but nothing i do can make me an ethnic Jew. you could call me a Messianic Gentile, but "Christian" makes more sense to me, and it's simpler.

 

[Zardoz]

I understand, didn't mean to sound so harsh but wanted to clarify for any readers.

This is the reason I feel it's important that there are two separate recognized communities, the 'Hebrew-Christians' and 'Messianic Jews' because we really are quite different and should be considered as such. Of course, we don't help the confusion any as we often associate with each other in social and organizational circles.

 

[ayani]

Zardoz ~

ok, that is ok. i do see some overlap between the "Hebrew Christians" and "Messianic Jews", but it seems like the two communities generally consider themselves to be different. even though both believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

i have heard of and listened to testimonies of Messianic Jews who also accept Jesus' divinity, and worship Him or pray to Him, in addition to praying to the Father in Jesus' Name. these were Isaraeli Messianic Jews who had their own community, and were very Jewish in their traditions and identity, but were rejected and even persecuted by the Orthodox (and non-Orthodox) Jews around them, and didn't try to assimiliate into the Christian community, either.

 

[Zardoz]

...Messianic Jews who also accept Jesus' divinity, and worship Him or pray to Him, in addition to praying to the Father in Jesus' Name. ...

That right there would be the dividing line, as I see it, between Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews. Not observance of ritual laws, as some Jews are more observant and some are less observant, but this does not make or break a Jew. Nor would belief in Yeshua as Messiah, as I have pointed out on numerous occasions there are actually at least two Messiahs; the Suffering Servant of Isaiah, and the Davidic Messiah. Add the ideas of a second coming, and there are may possible understandings of what Yeshua's role as Messiah was in the past and may be in the future. It's again not a make or break issue.

A concept of a divine Yeshua or any other incarnationist stands such as a trinity doctrine, there is where you see the division between Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews. Hebrew Christians will pray to Yeshua directly, like many Christians do. Messianic Jews, at least the ones like me, will never pray to Yeshua. That is against all our commandments. However, many Messianic Jews will pray to G-d and invoke the name of Yeshua, usually in the form 'in Yeshua's name we pray...' and I have heard some Christians use that exact same formula. Invoking a name in prayer isn't that unusual in Judaism, we all pray to the G-d of 'Abraham, Issac, and Jacob'. We invoke these names of our patriarchs sometimes to emphasize our covenant with G-d, call to mind the relationship we have to G-d. Invoking Yeshua's name in such a way is no different than this really. On the other hand, prayer directed to Yeshua is outside of all Judaism and so you will see other Jews reject and rebuke such behavior as you have noted.

So, the difference between the two groups, Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians, can usually be seen in prayers, more than any other consideration of practices or affiliations.

 

[ayani]

well, that could certainly be argued to be a dividing line, true. yet there are definately self-identifying Torah-oberservant Jews who do pray to Yeshua, as well as keep the Law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sEBAldf4L0

i also understand that some Messianic congregations are pattered more after traditoinal Jewish worship services, whereas others (like in the movie above) are more like Christian Pentacostal worship services.

an eternal, God-in-flesh, and worthy of worship Yeshua can be argued from passages such as John 17:5, John 14:6-9, and John 5:23. i agree that there is a distinction between Father and Son, and that the Son is not the Father. yet i wouldn't say that based on the Gospels one could not also argue that Jesus (Yeshua) is God with us, and the Word of God made Man.

but again, this is a DIR forum, and no debates. thank you for your information, that is really helpful. :yes: