Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

Why faith over certainty or proof?

What can faith do by itself?

Faith is certainty.
But faith should be based upon reason.

There is no proof that God exists, there never will be, so we look at the best evidence that indicates that God exists. With that evidence in hand we can be certain that God exists.

For me, that evidence is the Baha'i Faith, not just Baha'u'llah, but the whole religion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Faith is certainty.
But faith should be based upon reason.

There is no proof that God exists, there never will be, so we look at the best evidence that indicates that God exists. With that evidence in hand we can be certain that God exists.

For me, that evidence is the Baha'i Faith, not just Baha'u'llah, but the whole religion.

Messengers cant define god. So that comes back to the question of faith over reason. What is reason to you that you would seperate it from faith and put faith over it?

In what way are the messengers words reason and not just faith?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would assume youd have to be certain before you put your faith in anything.

For example, I am certain that I will not be here after I die. No spirit. No soul. I know this because of study, observation, and experience.

Now I can put my faith in living now and understanding mortality because I know I will die. My faith becomes stronger not a replacement of, what Im certain of.

If you know god exists, and its ownly based on faith that the messengers were correct, how can you express more than opinion?

Faith is too vague. You can mention anything and it will still be an opinion. But if you can display why you are certain, its more concrete. Your faith is validated and its not just opinions but actual testimony because of conclusions you made, know, and tested correct before you put your trust in it.

Faith in things of this world amounts to one thing, you will die and all you had and worked for will not be yours. With Faith one can be more than happy to share it with humanity, all the way through this life.

The Messengers of God express more than an opinion by living the life they preach. They are the embodiment of the Message they give and give us example by that life and many events that resulted.

Now I am certain I will live after this body dies, the proof of this is again the Messengers of God. Thus I have Faith that I can live a life that the Messenger asked us to live, in service to all of humanity. This is the outward practice of a solid and certain Faith.

Life Tests Faith. When you say I believe that is when life starts, it is not for the faint hearted as life will never be the same, Baha'u'llah has said it the best way in my opinion;

"....that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?”

I have found this statement to be very true. Peace be with you always.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Faith in things of this world amounts to one thing, you will die and all you had and worked for will not be yours. With Faith one can be more than happy to share it with humanity, all the way through this life.

You are not certain of this statement or dont need certainty (need to know its true/fact) you just have faith (hope) that it is?

The Messengers of God express more than an opinion by living the life they preach. They are the embodiment of the Message they give and give us example by that life and many events that resulted.

If you are certain, you dnt need faith of this.

If we ask you how you know this, you cant say you have faith and quote bahaullahss scripture. We know what you have faith it. We are asking how you are certain what the messengers say is true?

Now I am certain I will live after this body dies, the proof of this is again the Messengers of God. Thus I have Faith that I can live a life that the Messenger asked us to live, in service to all of humanity. This is the outward practice of a solid and certain Faith.

Why certain of one but faith in the other?

Are you not certain you wil live a life the messengers ask you to live?

How are you certain?
(We know why you have faith; we know what you have faith in)

We dont know the proof of your faith. If you are certain, provide proof not what you have faith in. We can claim anything is true by faith; not everything is true regardless of how much we are certain it is.

Life Tests Faith. When you say I believe that is when life starts, it is not for the faint hearted as life will never be the same, Baha'u'llah has said it the best way in my opinion;

Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?”

I have found this statement to be very true. Peace be with you always.

Is this rethorical for needing proof to support your belief?

If so, why separate the two?

Wouldnt it be easier if Bahaullah said he is certain rather than he believes in his statements about god?

@Trailblazer said

No, nobody would need faith if there was empirical evidence (proof) that God exists

Do you agree with this?

If there is proof or certainity, one would not need faith. Anyone can can have faith in anything. That proves nothing.

Without the foundation of certainity, faith means nothing.

Is bahaullah asking retorical question that without proof, there is no belief?

Why believe and have faith when you know what you believe is true?

There has to be some foundation of certainty before you put your faith in it.

"I have faith/I believe" is an empty statement.

Anyne can believe Bahaullah by faith. It doesnt matter. Its just something you put trust in.

However, claiming certainity needs more than just telling us waht Bahaullah says by faith.

We dont have faith in bahaullah; so, quoting has no significance.

Give proof that the messengers are telling the truth and then we will understand the reason and application of your faith.

Saying you have faith doesnt mean anything to us without explaining why you are certain (and how) the messengers are telling the truth first).

Give us a foundation of what you believe before you explain and quote and show us why you have faith in it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Faith is certainty.
But faith should be based upon reason.

There is no proof that God exists, there never will be, so we look at the best evidence that indicates that God exists. With that evidence in hand we can be certain that God exists.

For me, that evidence is the Baha'i Faith, not just Baha'u'llah, but the whole religion.

You’re contradicting yourself. Evidence that justifies certain knowledge is proof.

 

[ChristineM]

I don’t have to tell anybody anything. It is their job to find out if they want to know.

If you make a claim it is up to you to justify that claim, not up to joe bloggs at number 29 to justify it for you.

I know. Baha’u’llah said that education is very important

Ok

Belief is not an opinion; belief is based upon someone who existed, a Messenger of God. We believe He got a message from God. Atheism is an opinion that there is no such creature and there is no such god.

Wrong, your opinion is that he got texts from god. And you believe it.

The evidence for God is His Messengers. That is valid evidence for most people but I do not want to go around that block again.

So why go round the block again? You failed last time and the time before and the time before that to give convincing arguments.

Too bad the real God does not want to end faith, and an omnipotent God always gets

You have evidence of his claim?

 

[Trailblazer]

Messengers cant define god. So that comes back to the question of faith over reason. What is reason to you that you would seperate it from faith and put faith over it?

In what way are the messengers words reason and not just faith?

Nobody can define God. God is undefinable.
Messengers manifest God and reveal God's Will for humanity.
There is nothing unreasonable about that.

Messengers are the Word of God because they are the representative and mouthpiece of God.

“The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its meaning.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70

 

[Willamena]

You’re contradicting yourself. Evidence that justifies certain knowledge is proof.

It is, indeed, but subjective.

 

[Trailblazer]

You’re contradicting yourself. Evidence that justifies certain knowledge is proof.

I meant that there is no objective proof that God exists...

You are right -- Evidence that justifies certain knowledge is proof.
That is why I have proven to myself that God exists; since my evidence justifies certain knowledge to me, it is proof to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I meant that there is no objective proof that God exists...

And what's non-objective proof? Subjective proof?

You are right -- Evidence that justifies certain knowledge is proof.
That is why I have proven to myself that God exists; since my evidence justifies certain knowledge to me, it is proof to me.

If your evidence really does justify certain knowledge for you, why wouldn't it justify this for anyone else?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t have to tell anybody anything. It is their job to find out if they want to know.

If you make a claim it is up to you to justify that claim, not up to joe bloggs at number 29 to justify it for you.

No, it is not my job to do other peoples’ homework. They can read just as well as I can.

elief is not an opinion; belief is based upon someone who existed, a Messenger of God. We believe He got a message from God. Atheism is an opinion that there is no such creature and there is no such god.
Wrong, your opinion is that he got texts from god. And you believe it.

Why haggle over words? It does not matter what words you use. It means essentially the same thing.

What I mean is that belief is not a personal opinion because it is based upon what the Messenger said.

The evidence for God is His Messengers. That is valid evidence for most people but I do not want to go around that block again.
So why go round the block again? You failed last time and the time before and the time before that to give convincing arguments.

I am not going around any blocks. I am going to work and it is a 90 minute commune on my bike, so I will see you later.

Too bad the real God does not want to end faith, and an omnipotent God always gets

You have evidence of his claim? .

The evidence is that God does not prove He exists in any objective way, so that must mean God does not end faith...

 

[ChristineM]

You forgot to quote the applicable part that confirmed what I said. No worries here it is for you again;

"I do not need you to do this in case you are wondering , only do it if it makes you happy, as Life is so great!"

Thus I assume you did it to make yourself happy.

Peace be with you.

I didn't forget, it was deliberate because it was a separate paragraph.

You can assume whatever pleases you, i included those links to prove you were wrong in your claim. Which of course you refuse to acknowledge and will no doubt use the same ploy at sometime in the future hoping for a different answer. Cynicism??? Perhaps..., we'll see.

 

[Trailblazer]

And what's non-objective proof? Subjective proof?

We look at the objective proof of Baha'u'llah but we interpret it subjectively.

If your evidence really does justify certain knowledge for you, why wouldn't it justify this for anyone else?

Because we all evaluate and interpret the evidence differently, since we all think differently.
See you later, I have to go to work and I am running late.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Is there any reason to think that God, if God exists, would want 100% of people in the world to believe in Him?

Questions like this might seem reasonable to people who already believe in a deity. But to the rest of us, it's a nonsense starting point.

"Is there any reason to think that elves are real and want 100% of the world to believe in them?"

Dafuq?!?

See how bonkers that sounds?

But to answer your questions, If I were a deity, I wouldn't give two ****s about my play things believing in me. That's like asking if it hurts my feelings that my woodworking or craft projects don't believe in me. Why would any of that matter to the Great I, Creator Jon?

If God wanted everyone to believe in Him, what do you think God would do in order to accomplish that?

Supposing this is all a real scenario, who would know what we needed better than the one who supposedly created us? I know every detail of my woodworking projects. If they were sentient, living creatures, wouldn't I just need to show myself to them in order for them to believe in me?

Do you think that God can show up on earth? If so, how would God do that?

If your supposed God were real, in the sense that people argue that He is, He should be able to do anything and everything, right? I suppose in that case he could manifest himself in the form of a child to a virgin mother, and then follow some insanely limited racial and geographic traditions at a very specific period of History, being limited to period-appropriate socioeconomic morés... Or he could just plop a giant house down in the middle of a major city here on Earth and live there for eternity, basking in the adoration and praise of all of this creations for all time.

The latter would make more sense to me, were a deity actually interested in having his play things worship him...

 

[Willamena]

If your evidence really does justify certain knowledge for you, why wouldn't it justify this for anyone else?

I could, if they could follow the same beliefs to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We look at the objective proof of Baha'u'llah but we interpret it subjectively.

But you just said that there was no objective proof. I'm having real trouble figuring out what you're trying to say.

Because we all evaluate and interpret the evidence differently, since we all think differently.

But some standards of evidence are demonstrably wrong. Someone may accept or reject a claim for bad reasons; this doesn't say anything about whether the claim can be objectively proven.

It also seems like you're making an argument for evidence generally, but earlier, it seemed like you were saying that objective proof of God's existence had problems that objective proof of other claims didn't have.

 

[ChristineM]

No, it is not my job to do other peoples’ homework. They can read just as well as I can.

Been here before, several times. It is the responsibility of those making the claim to provid validation of that claim. You cannot expect say a medicine manufacturer to release a new drug without verifying its effectiveness first. What you suggest is release the drug and expect other people to see if it kills them.

Why haggle over words? It does not matter what words you use. It means essentially the same thing.

What I mean is that belief is not a personal opinion because it is based upon what the Messenger said.

Because words have meaning, making up meaning to suite your own sensibilities simply confuses the issue and dilutes the language

I am not going around any blocks. I am going to work and it is a 90 minute commune on my bike, so I will see you later

Enjoy your day.

The evidence is that God does not prove He exists in any objective way, so that must mean God does not end faith...

Ahh so no evidence is evidence... Got ya

 

[Koldo]

Then we have to ask, what is best for our well being?

That's a good question and much is up to debate, but I think we can agree on certain things such as not dying from Cholera, Smallpox or Leprosy.

If God is All-Knowing and All-Wise, then God knows what is best for our well-being. Is it best for our well-being for God to make us believe in Him or is it best to leave that up to us?

Tricky question. Is our well-being improved by believing in God ? I don't think it makes much of a difference.
But, perhaps more importantly, even if God didn't want to have any sort of contact with humans I wouldn't see it as inherently evil.

The solution to that is that the literal classical hell does not exist. Hell is a state of the soul that is distant from God, and it is a choice we make by not believing in and being close to God. The gray area is that everyone cannot just believe in God and be close to God just because they want to, so then we have the mercy of a God who understands all things and knows everyone’s heart. God can thus choose to draw closer to him those who wanted to believe but couldn’t. God won’t be able to draw people who hate Him closer so they have created their own hell. I am afraid that is what this atheist I have referred to has done.

Some theists do believe in a literal classical hell though. They solve the "contradiction" by not really believing in an omnibenevolent god.

So there you have it, one more reason why God communicating directly to everyone is a bad idea. This atheist just assumed that everyone wants to believe in god, but some people don’t want to believe in god. That is what God leaves that choice up to us.

If somebody really wants to believe in God they will find a way to believe in God, so I conclude that some atheists just do not want to believe in God. I see nothing wrong with that. I was never searching for God when I stumbled upon my religion. I could not have cared less about God. I just accidentally ran into God during my first year of college when I found out about the Baha’i Faith.

It is only because I believe in Baha’u’llah that I believe in God and there are many days I would just as well drop God off at the nearest bus stop, but He won’t get out of my car.

Do I want to believe in God? Yes and no, depends upon the day.

I am not sure if I understand you correctly here, so I would like to confirm: By 'some people don't want to believe in god', do you mean that 'some people want to believe god doesn't exist' ?

If that's the case, I don't really know of anyone that 'wants' to believe that God doesn't exist. I can't say this sort of person doesn't exist, but, honestly, I have never come across anyone like that. I find the concept of 'wanting' ( and not wanting ) to believe in God quite weird. Would you say that you want to believe in God ? If so, can you tell me why ?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The evidence is that God does not prove He exists in any objective way, so that must mean God does not end faith...

But you said that God has been subjectively proven for you... has your faith ended?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nobody can define God. God is undefinable.
Messengers manifest God and reveal God's Will for humanity.
There is nothing unreasonable about that.

That doesnt answer my question

How is faith certainty?

Anyone can put their faith in messengers. That doesnt mean the messengers are telling the truth. If you make a statement saying you are certain, you no longer have faith; you know.

How can you be certain the messengers are telling the truth when you said there is no proof (nor description) of him to exist?

If you are certain, demonstrate how we can trust the messengers world beyond faith (for example reason and facts)

Absolute faith confers absolute certainty.
Knowledge alone can never confer absolute certainty.

How do you discern whether the messengers are telling you facts to which you are certain true without putting knowledge as important in drawing conclusions to your belief system?

What is reason without knowledge?

Messengers are the Word of God because they are the representative and mouthpiece of God.

“The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes. If any be set up by His side as peers, if they be regarded as identical with His Person, how can it, then, be maintained that the Divine Being is One and Incomparable, that His Essence is indivisible and peerless? Meditate on that which We have, through the power of truth, revealed unto thee, and be thou of them that comprehend its meaning.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 70

How can I trust this is true when certainty and reason is not as important as faith?