Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

A god would presumably do what he wants, but we can infer the intent of a god from its supposed actions. We can infer that god that is able to communicate clearly with humanity but doesn’t do so isn’t interested in communicating clearly with humanity.

God did not communicate very clearly with humanity in the Bible, but God communicated clearly with humanity through Baha’u’llah, so we can infer that God is interested in communicating clearly with humanity in this new age.

 

[Trailblazer]

You’re the one proposing a God so irrelevant that its existence would be unverifiable and you ask “what’s good” some other “wimpy” God would be? Physician, heal thyself.

God’s existence could be verified if God wanted to verify it.

The fact that God does not does not verify His existence does not mean God is not omnipotent. It just means that God does not want to verify His existence. An omnipotent God only does what He wants to do.

And omnipotent God is not going to do what you think He should do (verify His existence) just because you think He should. Only a wimpy god would take orders from humans.

God does not do what humans want Him to do unless God wants to do it. That idea is encapsulated in these passages:

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, not to me. I have no doubt.

Why don’t you doubt what you say can’t be proven?

No, after we have verified all the things that can be verified, which is everything about Him other than that He got a message from God. Nobody can verify that because nobody heard what He heard.

IOW, you can’t verify the only thing that would make him a Messenger of God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God did not communicate very clearly with humanity in the Bible, but God communicated clearly with humanity through Baha’u’llah, so we can infer that God is interested in communicating clearly with humanity in this new age.

How are Baha’i scriptures any clearer than Christian scriptures?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God’s existence could be verified if God wanted to verify it.

The fact that God does not does not verify His existence does not mean God is not omnipotent. It just means that God does not want to verify His existence. An omnipotent God only does what He wants to do.

And omnipotent God is not going to do what you think He should do (verify His existence) just because you think He should. Only a wimpy god would take orders from humans.

Do you think your suggestion that God chooses to be irrelevant would make God not irrelevant?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why don’t you doubt what you say can’t be proven?

I do not need to have proof because I have good evidence. I have no doubt that my evidence is accurate. I have thus proven it to myself.

IOW, you can’t verify the only thing that would make him a Messenger of God.

True, but I can verify in my own mind that He told the Truth about the revelation He received so that is my verification. Aside from that, I can read what He wrote and know it if from God because there is no other logical explanation for what He wrote. It is so majestic.

But aside from what He wrote about God and spiritual matters, Baha’u’llah wrote about many practical matters. We know that Baha’u’llah did not have more than a rudimentary education so there is no explanation as to where He acquired the knowledge that He had.

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Here is a partial list of specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

From: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

How are Baha’i scriptures any clearer than Christian scriptures?

They are straightforward and to the point, not written in parables. One passage flows from another, they are not disjointed. There are so many reasons they are clearer. Some people think that the Writings of Baha'u'llah in King James English a bit flowery and difficult to understand. He uses some symbolism as all scriptures do, but it is still clear what He means if one is familiar with the Baha'i Faith theology and teachings. I suggest people familiarize themselves with the theology and teachings before they delve into the esoteric Writings about God and the soul, etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

True, but I can verify in my own mind that He told the Truth about the revelation He received so that is my verification.

In your own mind, you can do what you say can’t be done?

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think your suggestion that God chooses to be irrelevant would make God not irrelevant?

God is not irrelevant to anyone except the 7% of people in the world who are atheists.

God has not chosen to be irrelevant. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is as clear as the noonday sun. God cannot help it of atheists do not like the idea of Messengers.

Related to my last post and the clarity of the Writings, see if you can figure out what Baha’u’llah is saying in this passage.

Hint: It is related to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah being relevant.

“O Náṣir, O My servant! God, the Eternal Truth, beareth Me witness. The Celestial Youth hath, in this Day, raised above the heads of men the glorious Chalice of Immortality, and is standing expectant upon His seat, wondering what eye will recognize His glory, and what arm will, unhesitatingly, be stretched forth to seize the Cup from His snow-white Hand and drain it. Only a few have as yet quaffed from this peerless, this soft-flowing grace of the Ancient King. These occupy the loftiest mansions of Paradise, and are firmly established upon the seats of authority. By the righteousness of God! Neither the mirrors of His glory, nor the revealers of His names, nor any created thing, that hath been or will ever be, can ever excel them, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.

O Náṣir! The excellence of this Day is immensely exalted above the comprehension of men, however extensive their knowledge, however profound their understanding. How much more must it transcend the imaginations of them that have strayed from its light, and been shut out from its glory! Shouldst thou rend asunder the grievous veil that blindeth thy vision, thou wouldst behold such a bounty as naught, from the beginning that hath no beginning till the end that hath no end, can either resemble or equal. What language should He Who is the Mouthpiece of God choose to speak, so that they who are shut out as by a veil from Him can recognize His glory? The righteous, inmates of the Kingdom on high, shall drink deep from the Wine of Holiness, in My name, the all-glorious. None other besides them will share such benefits.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 107-108

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not only did Baha’u’llah know things He did not learn in any school, He also predicted many things that later came to pass. Here is a partial list of specific things Baha’u’llah knew and things He predicted that later came to pass:

Didn’t we look at a couple of these before and find that these “predictions” were very underwhelming?

 

[LuisDantas]

God’s existence could be verified if God wanted to verify it.

The fact that God does not does not verify His existence does not mean God is not omnipotent. It just means that God does not want to verify His existence. An omnipotent God only does what He wants to do.

Isn't there a clear implication that God does not particularly want to be believed in?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God is not irrelevant to anyone except the 7% of people in the world who are atheists.

God has not chosen to be irrelevant. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is as clear as the noonday sun. God cannot help it of atheists do not like the idea of Messengers.

I mean that in every measurable and observable way, the world is consistent with God not existing. And by your arguments, it sure seems that you agree with me on this point: you say that God cannot be objectively proven.

IOW, there’s nothing where we can say “if God existed, we’d see X and if he didn’t, we’d see Y, so the fact that we see X and not Y means that God exists.”

For God to be relevant in any measurable way, there would have to be something we could point to that would be different depending on whether God existed or not. If you’re saying that no such things exist, then you’re implying that God is irrelevant to us in every way we can measure.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Related to my last post and the clarity of the Writings, see if you can figure out what Baha’u’llah is saying in this passage.

It’s certainly not as clear as a modern translation of the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

In your own mind, you can do what you say can’t be done?

It can be done because I can know “in my own mind” that He was telling the Truth. I cannot explain to you how I know. Suffice to say that verification does not require objective evidence.

Verification: the process of establishing the truth, accuracy, or validity of something.
https://www.google.com/search

 

[Trailblazer]

Didn’t we look at a couple of these before and find that these “predictions” were very underwhelming?

Maybe they were underwhelming to you... I thought they were pretty cool...
If you look at the book you can judge for yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't there a clear implication that God does not particularly want to be believed in?

No, God wants to be believed in without verification.
God knows that we can know that God exists without verification.
That is what God is shooting for....

 

[LuisDantas]

No, God wants to be believed in without verification.
God knows that we can know that God exists without verification.
That is what God is shooting for....

The least I can say to that is that it is unconvincing and sounds extremely unlikely.

 

[Trailblazer]

I mean that in every measurable and observable way, the world is consistent with God not existing.

I can go along with that. There is nothing we can see that “indicates” that God exists.
Most believers would disagree with me but oh well.

And by your arguments, it sure seems that you agree with me on this point: you say that God cannot be objectively proven.

I can agree with that as well, but that does not make a good argument for God’s nonexistence. In fact, it makes no sense that God would be made of matter, and it makes no sense that an immaterial God could be objectively proven.

IOW, there’s nothing where we can say “if God existed, we’d see X and if he didn’t, we’d see Y, so the fact that we see X and not Y means that God exists.”

That is true, with one exception; the Messengers of God and the religions they established would not be seen if God did not exist.

For God to be relevant in any measurable way, there would have to be something we could point to that would be different depending on whether God existed or not. If you’re saying that no such things exist, then you’re implying that God is irrelevant to us in every way we can measure.

Civilization and the progress in the history of mankind would be different if there was not a God that sent Messengers (Prophets) from age to age:

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest.......

What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.”
Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272, 273

 

[Trailblazer]

It’s certainly not as clear as a modern translation of the Bible.

I was not talking just about the actual verses and now understandable they are, but about the total revelation.
I do not know much of the Bible but it is my understanding that it is not even in chronological order.

However, it is all about what we are familiar with... I suppose to a Christian the Bible makes as much sense as the Revelation of Baha'u'llah makes to me. I was never a Christian so the Bible is very daunting to me.

Besides that, how accurately does a "modern translation" represent the original scriptures?
Baha'u'llah wrote His own scriptures and there is only one official translation from Persian and Arabic into English. As such, the original meaning has not been lost.

 

[Trailblazer]

The least I can say to that is that it is unconvincing and sounds extremely unlikely.

I can see how it would seem that way if one had no way to know anything about God.

It took me a long time to piece these things together by reading what Baha'u'llah wrote, and talking to atheists day and night explaining what I had pieced together. Whenever I get different responses from them, I come up with new insights. It is a process.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gosh... we can ALSO verify what Saint Nicholas did in the past! Just not the FANTASTICAL claims about him. You know, JUST LIKE with Baha'u'llah! Thus Santa Claus and Baha'u'llah are apparently equally as real.

But what exactly did Saint Nicholas do that was so fantastic? Did he start a new religion?

Sorry, but you have just as much verifiable evidence for your fantastical claims as the atheist has. The only difference is that you have more people willing to buy into your delusion that he has willing to buy into his. Again, I have to give the atheist credit for at least being original.

I think it is time to fold your deck. My atheist friend folded his deck about a week ago and now I have another atheist friend on that forum who is listening to me instead of to him. I spent the entire day yesterday posting to him.

One more time... I have verifiable evidence of everything surrounding the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but my atheist friend only has a personal opinion regarding what god would do to communicate if god was real. He has no verifiable evidence whatsoever.

I am sorry you cannot understand this striking difference between my good and his goods – verifiable evidence vs. personal opinion.

My goods have gone to market but his will never go to market because they won’t sell.

My goods caused a change all over the world and his goods are just sitting on the shelf gathering dust.

My goods get people to believe in God and his goods leave people waiting for a god that is never going to show up the way he imagines.

Need I go on?