Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

How is the desire to be worshiped and the desire to punish for not being worshiped not ego driven?

God does not have the desire to be worshiped because God wants worship, but rather God only wants us to worship Him for our own sake. God can well dispense means that God needs nothing from anyone.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

God does not have the desire to punish nonbelievers, nor does God punish nonbelievers. Any punishment we incur is solely related to our own loss as the result of not having believed in God and His message.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

 

[Willamena]

Sorry, I stated that clumsily... I meant that to a certain degree belief is a choice, but it is not something people are always able to choose.
In other words, there is an element of choice, but only God knows how much "freedom" anyone has to choose, since God is All-Knowing. That is why no believer has the right to judge any nonbeliever's choices.

Well, I don't believe any of that, but okay.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's put it this way, do people need to argue or attempt to convince and persuade people regarding the existence of the rain or sun?

You asked what would God have to do?

Well the rain and the sun I don't need any convincing. I'm sure all of us knows how that comes about.

God would have to need to do that. In order for us to acknowledge and determine there is in fact a God. Would require an actual God.

The actual God cannot show up on earth like rain or sun because God is not physical; God is an immaterial Spirit. So all God can do is make Himself known. God does that by manifesting Himself as a divine man who is called a Manifestation of God. That does not get everyone to believe in God since not everyone believes in His Manifestation. However, Baha'u'llah wrote that there will come a time when everyone will believe the testimony of God through Baha'u'llah.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

 

[Trailblazer]

“Is there any reason to think that God, if God exists, would want 100% of people in the world to believe in Him?”

There are reasons to believe it, but nothing I consider compelling. God seems keen to stay in mystery as far as I can tell.

You are right about that. God makes His attributes and His will known by manifesting Himself as a divine man often referred to as a Prophet or a Messenger of God. However, God never reveals His Essence to man. That remains forever hidden.

“If God wanted everyone to believe in Him, what do you think God would do in order to accomplish that?”

Buy an advertising slot during the Superbowl and make a hilarious video. Plenty of things would work assuming the being is, in fact, God.

How do you think that everyone would know it was God who did that, whatever it is God would do?

“Do you think that God can show up on earth? If so, how would God do that?”

He could arrive riding a flying spaghetti monster. That would be pretty memorable not to mention hilarious.

No, God cannot do that, sorry.

 

[Shad]

Do you think that God would choose certain individuals or would God communicate with everyone in the world?

Depends on God's actual views and goals again. For example if God is more like a fundamentalist Christian view requiring acknowledgement of the atonement doctrine and maximum belief the later. A far more deistic God like Christian Deism or newer biological intrinsic mergers the former

(My view of communication does not require anything grand. I do not expect a conversation like we are having now.)

 

[Sir Doom]

You are right about that. God makes His attributes and His will known by manifesting Himself as a divine man often referred to as a Prophet or a Messenger of God. However, God never reveals His Essence to man. That remains forever hidden.

I didn't say anything like that, nor do I believe anything like that. I have yet to see anything to convince me that anyone has been, is or will ever be a prophet of God.

How do you think that everyone would know it was God who did that, whatever it is God would do?

If it was God's intention to reveal itself to the entirety of humanity with the express purpose of convincing all of us at once that God truly existed then the delivery method would be irrelevant. Success is guaranteed when you are working with omnipotence.

No, God cannot do that, sorry.

I'll be sure to remind God of your restriction in this regard next time I speak to him. I'm sure God doesn't want to get in trouble for breaking your rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you please provide a link to these Baha'u'llah scriptures? I'd like to familiarize myself with them before I comment further.

Baha’i Reference Library online (new version) is fully downloadable:
The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Baha’i Reference Library online (older version) is easier to read online, but is not downloadable. All the same works are in the older version but they have to be accessed individually. Below are the links to some of the books I recommend.

• Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
• The Kitáb-i-Íqán
• The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh
• Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas
• Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh is the book that I would recommend that you read first.
Below are some excerpts from the Introduction to Gleanings (which is not in the online version, only in the book).

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.”

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.”

 

[Koldo]

I guess you said no because an omnipotent God would not need everyone to believe in Him?

Not really. It is just that an omnipotent God would have figured out a way by now.

How would everyone see those messages and how would anyone know that they came from God? They could be from a space alien.

Just looking at the sky.
If a space alien can pull that off I would regard it as God.

Yes, I am talking about an omnipotent God. Yes, anything goes, but only if the God wanted to do it.

Exactly. Which is why an omnipotent God doesn't care enough if we believe in him.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would you think that God would want people to believe in Him because of His ego?
God is not a human so God does not have an ego.

I would see it as the opposite, we would choose to believe because of Gods attribute of Humility;

From the Baha'i Writings;

"..They who are the beloved of God, in whatever place they gather and whomsoever they may meet, must evince, in their attitude towards God, and in the manner of their celebration of His praise and glory, such humility and submissiveness that every atom of the dust beneath their feet may attest the depth of their devotion. The conversation carried by these holy souls should be informed with such power that these same atoms of dust will be thrilled by its influence. They should conduct themselves in such manner that the earth upon which they tread may never be allowed to address to them such words as these: “I am to be preferred above you. For witness, how patient I am in bearing the burden which the husbandman layeth upon me. I am the instrument that continually imparteth unto all beings the blessings with which He Who is the Source of all grace hath entrusted me. Notwithstanding the honor conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth—a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation—behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men….” Bahá’u’lláh.

Peace be upon you Trailblazer.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Do you think that God would choose certain individuals or would God communicate with everyone in the world?"
Depends on God's actual views and goals again. For example if God is more like a fundamentalist Christian view requiring acknowledgement of the atonement doctrine and maximum belief the later. A far more deistic God like Christian Deism or newer biological intrinsic mergers the former.

(My view of communication does not require anything grand. I do not expect a conversation like we are having now.)

Okay thanks. It does depend upon what God is trying to accomplish, but regardless of that, I see no logical reason why God would ever need to communicate directly to every single person in the world, when God can communicate to one Messenger who can get the message out to everyone by means of scriptures that He writes.
That is what I believe that God has indeed done, and it is available to everyone in books and on the internet, even in audio for those who cannot read or are blind: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

I certainly do not believe that God owes me a direct conversation, or that this is even possible, but that is another subject I can explain later if you are interested.

 

[Trailblazer]

“You are right about that. God makes His attributes and His will known by manifesting Himself as a divine man often referred to as a Prophet or a Messenger of God. However, God never reveals His Essence to man. That remains forever hidden.”

I didn't say anything like that, nor do I believe anything like that. I have yet to see anything to convince me that anyone has been, is or will ever be a prophet of God.

What have you looked at? Do you just think that there is no such thing as a Prophet of God, that there cannot be such a thing?

“How do you think that everyone would know it was God who did that, whatever it is God would do?”

If it was God's intention to reveal itself to the entirety of humanity with the express purpose of convincing all of us at once that God truly existed then the delivery method would be irrelevant. Success is guaranteed when you are working with omnipotence.

That is true. God could do that if that was God’s Goal. Apparently it is not.

“No, God cannot do that, sorry.”

I'll be sure to remind God of your restriction in this regard next time I speak to him. I'm sure God doesn't want to get in trouble for breaking your rules.

Let me know what you find out when you get God on His cell... I have heard He does not always answer and when He does, He does not go in for two-way conversations.

 

[Shad]

Okay thanks. It does depend upon what God is trying to accomplish, but regardless of that, I see no logical reason why God would ever need to communicate directly to every single person in the world, when God can communicate to one Messenger who can get the message out to everyone by means of scriptures that He writes.

You dismissed goals then proceed to inject a goal driven view based on a text. Sorry but this is nonsensical is an argument. If there is a goal and accomplishment of that goal matter single individual presentation/representation has failed repeatedly thus there is a logical reason to use a different method. For example if I have a goal of filling a stadium of people using one person to get the word out is less effective than if I had 10 doing it, etc.

That is what I believe that God has indeed done, and it is available to everyone in books and on the internet, even in audio for those who cannot read or are blind: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Okay but surely you see the flaws of having 1 messenger at a time given history of religion. Such a method has a horrible track record when it comes to the "next" version

I certainly do not believe that God owes me a direct conversation, or that this is even possible, but that is another subject I can explain later if you are interested.

It is up to you really. I think we agree upon the general idea regarding communication need not be verbal nor text in this regard.

 

[Trailblazer]

“I guess you said no because an omnipotent God would not need everyone to believe in Him?”

Not really. It is just that an omnipotent God would have figured out a way by now.

God does not have to figure anything out. God already knows of a way because God is All-Knowing.

“How would everyone see those messages and how would anyone know that they came from God? They could be from a space alien.”

Just looking at the sky.
If a space alien can pull that off I would regard it as God.

YOU would regard it as God, but everyone else would not necessarily regard it as such.

“Yes, I am talking about an omnipotent God. Yes, anything goes, but only if the God wanted to do it.”

Exactly. Which is why an omnipotent God doesn't care enough if we believe in him.

No, it is not that God does not care... God cares but God only wants to believe in Him on His terms, by looking at the evidence He provides, which is the Messenger He sends as proof of His existence. If we do not like that evidence we cannot just order up something else. God is not a cook at a restaurant.

 

[Sir Doom]

What have you looked at? Do you just think that there is no such thing as a Prophet of God, that there cannot be such a thing?

I have looked into lots of things far too numerous to list here. I've heard countless people speak on God's behalf and every last one has had a personal agenda, not least of which is 'feeling right'. I don't expect that will ever change either. I assume either God wants it that way or doesn't exist. I could be wrong but it doesn't seem that way.

That is true. God could do that if that was God’s Goal. Apparently it is not.

Exactly my position.

Let me know what you find out when you get God on His cell... I have heard He does not always answer and when He does, He does not go in for two-way conversations.

You're the one making restrictions. It is just as likely that God will call me on the phone as it is that God will appear as a talking pillar of flame. That is to say, not likely at all. I will say that if I were God and decided it was time to 'show up' I would make it a point to arrive on a flying spaghetti monster. I can think of no better practical joke in the cosmos.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe in free will, but not in belief as a choice.

Yep....!
Imagine choosing that 'today I think I'll believe in pink elephants!'.

But if people want something desperately enough, then they can spin up beliefs to fill that gap fairly easily, I think.

 

[Trailblazer]

You dismissed goals then proceed to inject a goal driven view based on a text. Sorry but this is nonsensical is an argument. If there is a goal and accomplishment of that goal matter single individual presentation/representation has failed repeatedly thus there is a logical reason to use a different method. For example if I have a goal of filling a stadium of people using one person to get the word out is less effective than if I had 10 doing it, etc.

God does not operate as humans do by applying logic to a problem He is trying to solve. God chooses His Method based upon many factors, not just how many people will believe in Him. There are other reasons to use Messengers, not the least of which there is an important message God wants to make available to everyone, and a Messenger is the only way to accomplish that.

I never said that the God’s Goal was to get the message out to all of humanity right away. I said that God using a Messenger makes it possible to get the message out to all of humanity, and people will come to accept that message over a period of time.

Okay but surely you see the flaws of having 1 messenger at a time given history of religion. Such a method has a horrible track record when it comes to the "next" version.

Given the history of religion, this method has been slow to get believers in the new religion right after it was revealed and for a long time afterward, but it has accomplished its purpose of getting people to believe in God, since 93% of people in the world believe in God. 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger. So obviously, using Messengers is a successful method of communication.

If God had never used Messengers, hardly anyone would believe in God because the main reason people believe in God is because of one of those Messengers. Only about 9% of people in the world believe in God for some other reason.

There will always be people who do not believe in God because man has free will so man can choose to believe in God or not. This is exactly the way God wants it, otherwise God would not have created man with free will.

You are certainly right that the Messenger method has a poor track record when it comes to the next Messenger, but the reason for that is because people of the older religions cling tenaciously to their older Messengers and religious traditions, thus every new Messenger is always rejected when He appears and for a long time afterwards. This is mostly the fault of the religious leaders of the older religions who attempt to keep their flocks in tow because they are not willing to relinquish authority and power. Another reason for the rejection of the new Messenger is that the followers of the older religion do recognize the fulfillment of prophecies by the new Messenger since they misinterpret prophecies in their scriptures.

It is up to you really. I think we agree upon the general idea regarding communication need not be verbal nor text in this regard.

If communication is not verbal or text, what would it be?
Why would it be left up to me how an omnipotent God chose to communicate?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I do not care what that theist says. onl Iy wanted to know what you think. What do YOU think god would want if god existed?

Yes, that is true, as we discussed before. God knows what you require since God knows everything.

God cannot do ANYTHING. God can only do what it is within His Nature to DO.
So those people who told you that were wrong. An immaterial Spirit God cannot show up on a material earth.

That's a nonsensical question. It's like asking what do you think the Easter Bunny would want, if the Easter Bunny was real.

I can't imagine how the people who told me god can do anything could be any more wrong that you. After all, until someone presents verifiable evidence that this god even exists, you're debating the abilities of a make believe character. And if it's make believe then EVERYONE is entitled to make believe whatever they want.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would see it as the opposite, we would choose to believe because of Gods attribute of Humility;

From the Baha'i Writings;

"..They who are the beloved of God, in whatever place they gather and whomsoever they may meet, must evince, in their attitude towards God, and in the manner of their celebration of His praise and glory, such humility and submissiveness that every atom of the dust beneath their feet may attest the depth of their devotion. The conversation carried by these holy souls should be informed with such power that these same atoms of dust will be thrilled by its influence. They should conduct themselves in such manner that the earth upon which they tread may never be allowed to address to them such words as these: “I am to be preferred above you. For witness, how patient I am in bearing the burden which the husbandman layeth upon me. I am the instrument that continually imparteth unto all beings the blessings with which He Who is the Source of all grace hath entrusted me. Notwithstanding the honor conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth—a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation—behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men….” Bahá’u’lláh.

Peace be upon you Trailblazer.

I do not believe God is humble. God cannot be humble because God is All-Powerful. It is kind of foggy in my mind but recently I read that one thing God cannot be is a Servant. Because God cannot be a Servant, humans are enjoined to be Servants, so God can see in us one attribute He does not possess. Of course Baha’u’llah spoke with great authority, as the Voice of Divinity; but at the same time he considered Himself utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of God, a Servant of God who evinced the utmost humility and self-effacement.

“And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self within such a Court is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man’s heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with any one but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His Voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

 

[Trailblazer]

“What have you looked at? Do you just think that there is no such thing as a Prophet of God, that there cannot be such a thing?”

I have looked into lots of things far too numerous to list here. I've heard countless people speak on God's behalf and every last one has had a personal agenda, not least of which is 'feeling right'. I don't expect that will ever change either. I assume either God wants it that way or doesn't exist. I could be wrong but it doesn't seem that way.

Maybe you were just looking in the wrong places. Maybe God wants you to keep searching. Maybe God allowed you to find all those false messengers so that when you encountered a true Messenger you would be able to tell the difference. I am happy to hear you say that maybe you could be wrong. Humility is a necessary attribute of the true seeker.

“Let me know what you find out when you get God on His cell... I have heard He does not always answer and when He does, He does not go in for two-way conversations.”

You're the one making restrictions. It is just as likely that God will call me on the phone as it is that God will appear as a talking pillar of flame. That is to say, not likely at all. I will say that if I were God and decided it was time to 'show up' I would make it a point to arrive on a flying spaghetti monster. I can think of no better practical joke in the cosmos.

I can certainly understand why you say that. I do not make the restrictions myself, but I believe I know what they are. I just report what they are according to my religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a nonsensical question. It's like asking what do you think the Easter Bunny would want, if the Easter Bunny was real.

No, you can think in the hypothetical realm... if god existed, would god want everyone in the world to believe in him?

I can't imagine how the people who told me god can do anything could be any more wrong that you. After all, until someone presents verifiable evidence that this god even exists, you're debating the abilities of a make believe character. And if it's make believe then EVERYONE is entitled to make believe whatever they want.

Fine, I can understand that from your perspective. From your perspective, my version of God that comes from my religion is no more likely to be the correct version than is any version anyone might make up.

But what do you think about an atheist who insists that his make believe version of the god he does not believe in is the only version of god that could exist, and otherwise god cannot exist? In other words, it is his make believe god or no god at all... In other words, he has decided what god would do if god were real, as if he could ever know what god would do. What do you think of such an atheist?