Questions for creationists who ‘understand evolution’?

[FDRC2014]

Believing in God is not always an assumption.
I have my reasons.
That's another topic.

A 'strong inner conviction' is not a reason.
Of course god is an assumption...

 

[Thief]

A 'strong inner conviction' is not a reason.
Of course god is an assumption...

So cause and effect doesn't work for you?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Believing in God is not always an assumption.
I have my reasons.
That's another topic.

To make the assumption God exists you also previously made the assumption that the Universe is necessarily created. That's an assumption.

Skepticism has it's place....but is not a virtue.

Yes it is. Refusing to accept something as being true without valid justification is most definitely and demonstrably a good trait.

It is a tool.

No, it isn't. There is no "method" for skepticism, it is merely a response - in almost the exact same way kindness is a response.

It's all fine and good to doubt what you cannot see or touch.
But there is a great deal you do believe in.....without having done so.

Care to give an example?

That you have failed to find a cause to believe in God.....
makes me wonder if you know HOW to be skeptical.

Well then, produce evidence of God's existence.

 

[FDRC2014]

So cause and effect doesn't work for you?

No, thermodynamics works though.

Ultimately no cause is needed until you consider the cause of the big-bang. The cause of this is not well understood, you could call it god, but i prefer to just say we don't really know.

 

[Thief]

To make the assumption God exists you also previously made the assumption that the Universe is necessarily created. That's an assumption.


Yes it is. Refusing to accept something as being true without valid justification is most definitely and demonstrably a good trait.


No, it isn't. There is no "method" for skepticism, it is merely a response - in almost the exact same way kindness is a response.


Care to give an example?


Well then, produce evidence of God's existence.

That's all a different topic.

For now this thread....
God exists.
Evolution is good.
God did it.

 

[Thief]

No, thermodynamics works though.

Ultimately no cause is needed until you consider the cause of the big-bang. The cause of this is not well understood, you could call it god, but i prefer to just say we don't really know.

All things rest until...'something'....moves them.

Spirit first.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That's all a different topic.

For now this thread....
God exists.
Evolution is good.
God did it.

If you don't want to go off topic, don't bring assumptions and claims into threads that are off topic.

 

[FDRC2014]

All things rest until...'something'....moves them.

Spirit first.

This would be true if the universe was at absolute zero. But it's not, it has energy, therefore nothing is at rest.

 

[Thief]

If you don't want to go off topic, don't bring assumptions and claims into threads that are off topic.

Discussing the creation without the Creator?
A fool's errand.

 

[Thief]

This would be true if the universe was at absolute zero. But it's not, it has energy, therefore nothing is at rest.

This too is a different topic.
The singularity and it's creation....

 

[idea]

imo evolution does not happen through "random" chance, but through pro-active intelligence... take the black moths - Peppered moth evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if it was a random thing, then the moths would have originally been all kinds of random colors - yellow, purple, red, orange, green - and then out of all these random colors, the black ones would have survived through "selection" - "selected" out of all the other colors. This is not what happened - the moths proactively changed to the same non-random color - black.

For the same reason the placebo pills can work - I believe our minds control much of who we are - we are more than just matter and energy - a bouncing ball has matter and energy, you can predict what it will do, there is no free agency - no free will - you can predict what it will do....... you can't predict what we will do - we have the abilty to think and act - ACT, not react, but pure 100% act if we want to without being caused to do such, we have will - intelligence - and this intelliegence is able to do more than create poems...

to me, it is obviously pro-active, it is obviously intelligently designed - you can argue if the "intelligence" comes from God, or from our own mind, but there is no such thing as "random" in the scienitific community... not even chaos theory is random (chaos theory is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions, not random)...


just random? if it were just random then everything would evolve - the rocks would evolve...alchemy would not be sci fi - dead things do not evolve, and yet they survive - it is not about survival - the rocks survive... things with intelligence change/evolve... things without intelligence/spirit/will/mind/conscience do not evolve... you cannot ignore our mind/will/conscience/intelligence - call it what you will, but it is real. We can act/talk/think because it is real, and you have to take this quality into consideration while figuring out what is going on.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Discussing the creation without the Creator?
A fool's errand.

Assumptions.

imo evolution does not happen through "random" chance, but through pro-active intelligence... take the black moths - Peppered moth evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if it was a random thing, then the moths would have originally been all kinds of random colors - yellow, purple, red, orange, green - and then out of all these random colors, the black ones would have survived through "selection" - "selected" out of all the other colors. This is not what happened - the moths proactively changed to the same non-random color - black.

Are you seriously suggesting that peppered moths decided to change their colouration? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. We already know that this occurs through natural selection - no creature on earth can alter it's genetic code or the genetic code of it's offspring purely by wanting it to change.

For the same reason the placebo pills can work - I believe our minds control much of who we are - we are more than just matter and energy - a bouncing ball has matter and energy, you can predict what it will do, there is no free agency - no free will - you can predict what it will do....... you can't predict what we will do - we have the abilty to think and act - ACT, not react, but pure 100% act if we want to without being caused to do such, we have will - intelligence - and this intelliegence is able to do more than create poems...

So you're suggesting we can change our genetic code at will?

Nope, sorry.

to me, it is obviously pro-active, it is obviously intelligently designed - you can argue if the "intelligence" comes from God, or from our own mind, but there is no such thing as "random" in the scienitific community... not even chaos theory is random (chaos theory is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions, not random)...

Mutations are "random" by any reasonable standard since we have absolutely no means of predicting them. We understand what causes them, but we have no idea what areas of the genetic code will be affected ahead of time. It's like pouring out a 3-billion piece jigsaw puzzle, then closing your eyes and picking out a hundred or more pieces. It's not completely an totally 100% random, since the pieces you choose are still being determined by you and their position in the pile, but it is random by any reasonable human standard since you still cannot possibly predict which hundred pieces you will pick out,

just random? if it were just random then everything would evolve - the rocks would evolve...

I'm sorry, but you seriously need to go back and pick up an evolution textbook and learn a little about basic biology and genetics. This is embarrassing.

alchemy would not be sci fi - dead things do not evolve, and yet they survive - it is not about survival - the rocks survive... things with intelligence change/evolve... things without intelligence/spirit/will/mind/conscience do not evolve... you cannot ignore our mind/will/conscience/intelligence - call it what you will, but it is real. We can act/talk/think because it is real, and you have to take this quality into consideration while figuring out what is going on.

So, bacteria has intelligence?

 

[FDRC2014]

imo evolution does not happen through "random" chance, but through pro-active intelligence... take the black moths - Peppered moth evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if it was a random thing, then the moths would have originally been all kinds of random colors - yellow, purple, red, orange, green - and then out of all these random colors, the black ones would have survived through "selection" - "selected" out of all the other colors. This is not what happened - the moths proactively changed to the same non-random color - black.

No, they didn't proactively change. Moths have genes that code for the colour and pattern of colour. The colour that they can create depends on the possibilities that particular gene can produce. That is, there is very little blue or purple in nature, as it is a hard colour to produce through genetics, through green, black and white are easy. Out of these the most advantageous trait obviously persists. Also, you mistake colour in this context. These moths are shades not colour. It only takes one mutation in the pigment synthesis pathway to cause a lack of pigment. If moths with more black survived better, those alleles are passed on, hence they evolve.

For the same reason the placebo pills can work - I believe our minds control much of who we are - we are more than just matter and energy - a bouncing ball has matter and energy, you can predict what it will do, there is no free agency - no free will - you can predict what it will do....... you can't predict what we will do - we have the abilty to think and act - ACT, not react, but pure 100% act if we want to without being caused to do such, we have will - intelligence - and this intelliegence is able to do more than create poems...

Placebo effect works because of various phycological reasons, with things that just 'could' get better with our own human intervention. You don't get cured of downs with a placebo! It only affects environmental factors. You can predict what a bouncy ball will do in various situations, just like you can predict what evolution will do in various situations. Obviously your actions are independent, but that is as a result of complex actions in your brain, just questioning this is a complex action. Behaviour is governed by our brain, i can predict how certain drugs will affect someones behaviour. It's all complex chemical reactions that have evolved to allow us to be amazingly intelligent and independent. One example of this is if you have an fMRI and are asked to pick an option (say red green or blue), it can judge what option you will pick, before you consciously pick it. Your brain already knows what you will do before you do it - even if you think your changing your mind. Now that gets your thinking... :sarcastic

to me, it is obviously pro-active, it is obviously intelligently designed - you can argue if the "intelligence" comes from God, or from our own mind, but there is no such thing as "random" in the scienitific community... not even chaos theory is random (chaos theory is extreme sensitivity to initial conditions, not random)...

Not random, evolution is NOT random!! In fact it can be modelled very well.

just random? if it were just random then everything would evolve - the rocks would evolve...alchemy would not be sci fi - dead things do not evolve, and yet they survive - it is not about survival - the rocks survive... things with intelligence change/evolve... things without intelligence/spirit/will/mind/conscience do not evolve... you cannot ignore our mind/will/conscience/intelligence - call it what you will, but it is real. We can act/talk/think because it is real, and you have to take this quality into consideration while figuring out what is going on.

You are quite right, evolution is not random. But it requires a reproduction system to evolve. An imperfect reproduction system.
Here is a great quote by Lewis Thomas, "The capacity to blunder slightly is the real marvel of DNA replication. Without this special attribute we would still be anaerobic bacteria and there would be no music".

 

[Thief]

A discussion in a religious forum...about creation....
while not including it's Creator.... is not valid.

 

[tumbleweed41]

A discussion in a religious forum...about creation....
while not including it's Creator.... is not valid.

What limited thinking you exhibit.

 

[idea]

I did just a few "random" googles - showing that we pro-actively (not randomly) change -

see this one:

Evolution Is Deterministic, Not Random, Biologists Conclude From Multi-species Study
"evolutionary changes among these species were unidirectional in nearly all instances....
For example, they concluded that the number of cell divisions needed in vulva development declined over time -- instead of randomly increasing and decreasing. In addition, the team noted that the number of rings used to form the vulva consistently declined during the evolutionary process. These results demonstrate that, even where we might expect evolution to be random, it is not."

all the changes happen in the same direction - not randomly - these changes are consciece/purposeful/directed...


some changes are self-caused - others are other caused...
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HGT
through HGT changes occur - not randomly - but through the insertion of new genetic information from foreign species.

 

[Gunfingers]

The non-random nature of evolution is a product of natural selection, not choice. This is why Darwin, rather than Lamarck, is regarded as the father of evolution. Lamarch proposed a similar method of evolution to yours.

 

[idea]

You are quite right, evolution is not random. But it requires a reproduction system to evolve. An imperfect reproduction system.

another interesting ? some have asked - why is pair-bonding needed for reproduction? why does it take two? why not 3? why not only 1 to split in half?

link - why sexual reproduction?
Gene Conversion

"if an error develops in one copy of the gene, the process of gene conversion could compare it to the undamaged copy and fix it immediately. In the above example, gene conversion has been demonstrated for working genes"

reproduction actually protects the gene pool from random mutations - we fill in one another's holes/mistakes... sexual reproduction has preserved information intact through countless generations.

as with the moths - the information was already there (not randomly created) the moth simply chose which information to use in order to better blend in with its surroundings. Our mind controls our body - not everything is consciencly controlled, but it is controlled... our mind is a wonderful thing...

 

[idea]

The non-random nature of evolution is a product of natural selection, not choice. This is why Darwin, rather than Lamarck, is regarded as the father of evolution. Lamarch proposed a similar method of evolution to yours.

selection out of what? for there to be a selection - you first have to have a pool from which to select from... like the moths, what pool was there to select from? they all turned the same color, that's not a big random pool to select from, that's pro-active designed change.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I did just a few "random" googles - showing that we pro-actively (not randomly) change -

see this one:

Evolution Is Deterministic, Not Random, Biologists Conclude From Multi-species Study
"evolutionary changes among these species were unidirectional in nearly all instances....
For example, they concluded that the number of cell divisions needed in vulva development declined over time -- instead of randomly increasing and decreasing. In addition, the team noted that the number of rings used to form the vulva consistently declined during the evolutionary process. These results demonstrate that, even where we might expect evolution to be random, it is not."

all the changes happen in the same direction - not randomly - these changes are consciece/purposeful/directed...

By natural selection. I've already explained this - mutation is random, natural selection is not. Nothing in that article supports your assertion that evolution is determined by the organism.

some changes are self-caused - others are other caused...
see: Horizontal gene transfer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
through HGT changes occur - not randomly - but through the insertion of new genetic information from foreign species.

And how is that "self-caused"?

another interesting ? some have asked - why is pair-bonding needed for reproduction? why does it take two? why not 3? why not only 1 to split in half?

link - why sexual reproduction?
Gene Conversion

"if an error develops in one copy of the gene, the process of gene conversion could compare it to the undamaged copy and fix it immediately. In the above example, gene conversion has been demonstrated for working genes"

reproduction actually protects the gene pool from random mutations - we fill in one another's holes/mistakes... sexual reproduction has preserved information intact through countless generations.

And yet every single organism born will carry between 100 and 200 mutations in their genes that come purely through imperfect gene replication during the reproductive process.

as with the moths - the information was already there (not randomly created) the moth simply chose which information to use in order to better blend in with its surroundings. Our mind controls our body - not everything is consciencly controlled, but it is controlled... our mind is a wonderful thing...

Any evidence of this whatsoever? Also, if it takes a conscious decision for something to evolve, how do single-celled life forms that have no thought processes evolve?

selection out of what? for there to be a selection - you first have to have a pool from which to select from... like the moths, what pool was there to select from? they all turned the same color, that's not a big random pool to select from, that's pro-active designed change.

You really don't understand natural selection, do you?

Natural selection selects from the available random mutations within a population. In the instance of the peppered moth, it selected from the populations of moths those that had a darker tint which thrived and reproduced due to higher survival rates. They didn't all just suddenly a spontaneously turn the same colour out of willpower - natural selection ensured that those of a particular colour thrived and dominated the gene pool. This is basic biology.