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Questions for God

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Just because God is omnipotent and could have everything the way He wants, that does not mean everything is as God wants it to be...
The fly in the ointment is free will. God allows humans to have what they want, be it good or evil.
But the human brain makes its choices and decisions by processes that are biochemical and bioelectrical chains of cause and effect, which have been the subject of considerable study. Human choices aren't literally 'free' but the result of those processes. Of course to us brainowners they feel personal to us, but at root each of us is the product of our personal biomachinery. You may recall those experiments around 2010 or so showing instances where the non-conscious brain had made a decision and started to act on it up to ten seconds (though usually considerably less) before the conscious brain was aware of it.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I don't see how anyone could be omniscient without perfect knowledge of future random events, which would include the acts of beings with the classical concept of free will.

I also don't see how any being could have literally free will. For example, the decision-making processes of the brain have been the subject of many studies, leading to descriptions of the processes by which the brain decides, makes choices and elections. The processes are sequences of biochemical and bioelectrical phenomena sometimes edited by other parts of the brain before becoming actions, words, decisions &c. The alternative to such chains of cause and effect, however complex, is true randomness, and that only occurs at the quantum level eg in the emission of any particular particle in the course of radioactive decay, or the spontaneous formation and self-cancellation of particle-antiparticle pairs.
Where does anyone say that omniscience and omnipotence are equal? Perhaps the omnipotence can override the omnipotence / omniscience , causing a divine gamble. It seems to me that if God could not short-circuit / or create forces / beings / things he did not fully understand, then we are shortchanging our definition of omnipotence

As far as small stuff and large stuff is concerned (particles, galaxies, math etc.), is there full consensus on all the working parts? Though I mostly put on politics podcasts, I listen occasionally to Curt Jaimungal's podcast, and all these TOE people on there can go on for 3 or 4 hours at a time. I know they can't all agree with each other on free-will, or maybe lots of different stuff. There are highly educated people in math or science forums that I'm sure are disagreeing about all this stuff at this very minute, and I'd hardly understand half the words in the paragraphs they write

I am not sure it is that surprising if brain states changing before actions, words, or decisions is all that surprising. I might be going out on a limb, but I think maybe most people do have a few moments of thinking before doing those things.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Trailblazer

The problem for the Abrahamist is that he or she has chosen to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god, but lives in a world that should be different if that were the case. For much of that, there are the myths that explain why man is mortal and lives a difficult life rather than in a paradise, or why there are so many mutually unintelligible languages. Those put the blame on man for eating a forbidden apple or building a tall tower.

But then there are the countless occurrences that cause harmful and/or useless suffering that we know that we would prevent were we tri-omni gods, so why doesn't that happen here and now? Once again, the blame is shifted to man to sanitize this god despite ours being a world of more pain and suffering than we would allow. Thus we are told that this deity gave man free will, and what he does is his fault.

This is what you are about to do. You will invoke mutually exclusive ideas and simply insist that they are not contradictory. You will say that the creator knows all, can do all, and is all-loving, yet doesn't seem to do much to prevent the things we would prevent. This is usually met with some form of it being inappropriate to try to second-guess what a god should do or what is good.

You will say that the deity gives man free will yet knows everything every person will do before they are born, and simply ignore the objections to that. You will say that giving man free will absolves the deity of responsibility for what it foresaw that man would do.
God's omniscience means that [he] knew everything that would ever happen anywhere at any time in this universe, but that does not mean that God intended for everything to happen as it did.
If this deity was the only creative force for the universe, then it means that the deity is morally responsible for what it created and knowingly caused.

If there were/are other creative forces apart from the creator god such that it can know what those other forces will cause to happen but can't prevent or alter them, then it is not responsible for some of reality either as its cause or morally. In that case, it can't be said to be the creator, just the foreseer, like any other creature with foreknowledge but without the power to alter the course of events.

If it is the sole creative force as Abrahamists allege, and if it can see what will follow if it acts to create that universe, then it is responsible for whatever follows. Those are humanist values, and we apply them in our laws. Even if you can't foresee exactly what will happen if you create a dangerous situation such as leaving your car running with a case of beer in the front seat, and somebody steals the car, get drunk on the beer while driving, and causes an accident, that car owner will be held liable for negligence.

The outcome was foreseeable, and so the cause of it is held to account. The humanist will judge the deity by the same standards. The believer dares not.
God only intended for things to happen that God actually caused to happen.
If the god you believe in exists, it caused everything to happen. Here's another area where you'll make claims that seem incoherent to the critical thinker, and just insist that your claim is reasonable anyway.

You're simultaneously claiming that this deity is the source of everything and saw what it was about to do before it did it, yet it didn't cause some of those things and isn't to blame for what followed.

Why do that? Why not say that you believe in a tri-omni god and accept that this world is consistent with that, and not try to reconcile the apparent discrepancies with arguments that don't convince? You can say that this god is the universe's efficient cause and is morally responsible for what it created, and say that you accept that a tri-omni god might create such a world for reasons you feel no need to defend.

Of course, you'd have to admit that you aren't qualified to judge what is good and what is bad when it comes to gods, and that you are just trusting that it is a tri-omni god and that this world and what happens in it define good and bad for you. If it happens, a good god foresaw it and made it happen, therefore, what appears to be preventable misery is actually good for man, which some apologists do, but then go on to try to explain why it is good by human standards once again bringing his own ideas of good and bad to bear on the matter and explaining how this god meets his standards.

I think I'd modify my description of the god from tri-omni to something else. This god doesn't care about our problems, or is powerless to help, or is indifferent to man's suffering. The world is consistent with such a god. Could you worship such a god? You could throw out all of the mental gymnastics. There'd be nothing to explain or justify.
God does not cause the actions of men so God does not intend for those to happen.
Again, the humanist disagrees. If a god caused mankind, it caused its subsequent actions. That's a principle you'd apply elsewhere in your life, but not here. The humanist doesn't make an exception for alleged deities.
It means that we won't ever think, say or do anything other than what God perfectly foresaw.
It does not mean that we can't ever think, say or do anything other than what God perfectly foresaw.
You can't have it both ways. Well, maybe you can, but I can't.
God's omniscience does not put human free will out of the question.
It does according to the rules of critical thought, but you aren't required to use them. You are free to apply rogue logic, but you shouldn't expect those experienced in the academic laws of inference (standard logic) to agree with you.

I think you know that and don't expect to ever win over a critical thinker with such claims. I don't see why you try. I don't see why you write words that you know will be rejected and the arguments criticized. It must be for some perceived personal benefit or else you believe that your god expects you to do this.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So then let it all run free and if evil happens to someone just stand by , watch til the appointed time.
God is not 'standing by' because God is not a human being.
That's all granting free will where God knows best how to deal with free will. Is Earth the best way to deal with free will while waiting til some future redemption?
God does not deal with free will. Free will was given to man so man could make choices.
I believe that free will as we experience it on Earth will no longer exist after we die and enter the spiritual realm, which is why it is so important to exercise our free will while we still can.
Everyone has a fair shake at life is putting the blinders on.
Everyone certainly does not have the same life situation. Some people have a better situation than others and I don't think that is fair.
On the other hand, how else could it be?
Waiting for LA LA land, where delayed justice is finally rectifying everything in every life. That's another cartoon fantasy.
It is not a Baha'i belief that we should wait for the afterlife, where delayed justice is finally rectified.
I do not believe in delayed justice. As a Baha'i, I believe that justice should be realized in this world.

2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.
We can't fathom God's ways is just a silly excuse for not having any answers.
We certainly don't have all the answers, but we do have some answers.
If people choose not to look at the answers that God has provided through His Messengers then it is unfair to blame God for that.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But the human brain makes its choices and decisions by processes that are biochemical and bioelectrical chains of cause and effect, which have been the subject of considerable study. Human choices aren't literally 'free' but the result of those processes. Of course to us brainowners they feel personal to us, but at root each of us is the product of our personal biomachinery. You may recall those experiments around 2010 or so showing instances where the non-conscious brain had made a decision and started to act on it up to ten seconds (though usually considerably less) before the conscious brain was aware of it.
I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe that humans have a soul that operates through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, and the soul is the person, our personality, which is what causes us to make choices.

I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity, but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.

Recently I have changed my mind about how free we are when I realized just how limited I am in making choices different from the choices I am making now. I believe that free will is deterministic because the choices we make are 'determined' by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You will say that the deity gives man free will yet knows everything every person will do before they are born, and simply ignore the objections to that. You will say that giving man free will absolves the deity of responsibility for what it foresaw that man would do.
No, I will say that the fact that God foresaw what man would do does not make God in any way responsible for what man does.
I will say that giving man free will absolves the deity of responsibility for what man chooses to do.
If this deity was the only creative force for the universe, then it means that the deity is morally responsible for what it created and knowingly caused.
God is not a moral agent so God is not 'morally responsible' for anything.
God is responsible for what God created, but God is not responsible for anything that God does not cause.
God does not cause man to make choices so God is not responsible for those choices and resultant actions.
If the god you believe in exists, it caused everything to happen.
That makes absolutely no logical sense so that is why I do not believe it.
God only caused creation to come into existence and since that time God has sent Messengers in every age. That is ALL God does.

God gave man dominion over the earth.
God does not cause anything to happen in this world. Humans are the cause of what happens in this world.
You're simultaneously claiming that this deity is the source of everything and saw what it was about to do before it did it, yet it didn't cause some of those things and isn't to blame for what followed.
God is only responsible for creating the creation. God is not responsible for what happened in the creation AFTER that so God is not to blame for any of that.
Again, the humanist disagrees. If a god caused mankind, it caused their subsequent actions.
That is completely illogical. It makes no logical sense whatsoever. God created mankind and after that God was out of the game.
God gave man free will to make choices so man is morally responsible for those choices, as every court of law in the world knows.

God is only responsible for what God causes.
God does not cause people to make choices so God is not responsible for their choices.

If a person has an auto accident are they held responsible if they did not cause that accident? No, they are not.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Where does anyone say that omniscience and omnipotence are equal?
It's the 'omni' prefix that makes them equal. They both thus claim total knowledge and total power.
It seems to me that if God could not short-circuit / or create forces / beings / things he did not fully understand, then we are shortchanging our definition of omnipotence
By definition God could only do that at the expense of [his] omniscience.
As far as small stuff and large stuff is concerned (particles, galaxies, math etc.), is there full consensus on all the working parts?
Not really, simply the usual scientific view of best understanding at this time. Science is always a work in progress, not absolute statements of eternal truths.
I listen occasionally to Curt Jaimungal's podcast, and all these TOE people on there can go on for 3 or 4 hours at a time. I know they can't all agree with each other on free-will, or maybe lots of different stuff. There are highly educated people in math or science forums that I'm sure are disagreeing about all this stuff at this very minute, and I'd hardly understand half the words in the paragraphs they write
As a materialist, I keep waiting for the universal consciousness folk to put some evidence on the table, but I learnt early not to hold my breath.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe that humans have a soul that operates through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body, and the soul is the person, our personality, which is what causes us to make choices.
I respectfully disagree with that, as you know.
I believe we have a will and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.
No argument, really.
How free our choices are varies with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity, but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.
That depends on which definition of 'freewill' we're using. On the one hand it can mean simply that in situation A we can decide what to do or not do without external constraints and pressures.

The alternative is noting that the manner in which each brain functions is by very complex sequences of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect, which produce our decisions, and are a major element in defining us as individuals. At no point is there 'freedom' in those sequences, though whether there is quantum randomness at some or other points of the process remains, as far as I know, an open question.
Recently I have changed my mind about how free we are when I realized just how limited I am in making choices different from the choices I am making now. I believe that free will is deterministic because the choices we make are 'determined' by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.
That sounds right for the non-'mechanical' part of it.
 
@Trailblazer

The problem for the Abrahamist is that he or she has chosen to believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god, but lives in a world that should be different if that were the case. For much of that, there are the myths that explain why man is mortal and lives a difficult life rather than in a paradise, or why there are so many mutually unintelligible languages. Those put the blame on man for eating a forbidden apple or building a tall tower.
The view of God you're espousing here is the Classical view of God. A view that has largely died out. Within Jewish circles, the view has largely been rejected because of the Holocaust. Even among Christians, and especially within the scholarship, the idea of the classical view of God died around the 40s. The horrors of the Holocaust greatly transformed our view of God.

Now, if you look at things like process theology, or liberation theology, the view of God you often get is one that is self-limiting or is limited in some manner. This is the view of God we even see in the Book of Job, where God struggles to tame chaos, as depicted by the leviathan.

This view though looks as God as one who is all loving, which is the core idea. But in order for humans to be humans, to have the creative spark we do, God must be self-limiting in order to allow us to be humans. We also have to understand that this creative spark we have is possible because of chaos, the very thing that God formed the universe out of. This in turn gives the possibility of evil.

So, if we reject the idea of the classical view of God, then the issues that you discuss really aren't not issues.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
The view of God you're espousing here is the Classical view of God. A view that has largely died out. Within Jewish circles, the view has largely been rejected because of the Holocaust. Even among Christians, and especially within the scholarship, the idea of the classical view of God died around the 40s. The horrors of the Holocaust greatly transformed our view of God.
You are in the US where 80% of the people believe in a higher power, and the classical Christian view of God is held by a bit more than 50% of the general population. And 90% of those "who say they believe in the God of the Bible say they think God loves all people regardless of their faults, and that God has protected them. More than nine-in-ten people who believe in the biblical God envisage a deity who knows everything that goes on in the world, and nearly nine-in-ten say God has rewarded them, and has the power to direct or change everything that happens in the world." [1]


That is not a view that "has largely died out."
 
You are in the US where 80% of the people believe in a higher power, and the classical Christian view of God is held by a bit more than 50% of the general population. And 90% of those "who say they believe in the God of the Bible say they think God loves all people regardless of their faults, and that God has protected them. More than nine-in-ten people who believe in the biblical God envisage a deity who knows everything that goes on in the world, and nearly nine-in-ten say God has rewarded them, and has the power to direct or change everything that happens in the world." [1]


That is not a view that "has largely died out."
My qualification here was within the scholarship. If we look at what the scholarship says, and the views taught in college and seminarian, the Classical view is not it. This view is translating to a death of the view in the general populace as well, where it is being replaced.


Also, checked your source, it never mentions the Classical View of God. It mentions the God as described in the Bible, which is not necessarily the Classical View.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Now, if you look at things like process theology, or liberation theology, the view of God you often get is one that is self-limiting or is limited in some manner. This is the view of God we even see in the Book of Job, where God struggles to tame chaos, as depicted by the leviathan.
I'm not aware of those theologies, but I think that with the case of the devil/the snake/leviathan/satan, there is a different kind of free-will than that allowed to job. But I will explicate that eventually from my standpoint as someone who studies the Tarot.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I respectfully disagree with that, as you know.
Yes, I know. :)
That depends on which definition of 'freewill' we're using. On the one hand it can mean simply that in situation A we can decide what to do or not do without external constraints and pressures.
Did you mean that it can mean simply that in situation A we can decide what to do or not do unless there are external constraints and pressures?

I do not think that we can decide what to do or not do even if there are external constraints and pressures.
I think we are limited in the choices that we can make because the choices we make are 'determined' by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.
The alternative is noting that the manner in which each brain functions is by very complex sequences of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect, which produce our decisions, and are a major element in defining us as individuals. At no point is there 'freedom' in those sequences, though whether there is quantum randomness at some or other points of the process remains, as far as I know, an open question.
Even if that is the case, then you have to ask what causes the very complex sequences of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect, which produce our decisions. Does anyone know? If you do not know what causes these you cannot know that there is no freedom.

Moreover, even if these are what takes place and produces our decisions, unless we know what is causing these sequences of biochemical and bioelectrical sequences, we cannot know that the soul is not producing them.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
My qualification here was within the scholarship.
It was not. Your case was that "Even among Christians" the classical view of Christianity "has largely died out." You called out scholarship as a special instance with "and especially within the scholarship."

Do you have a study that talks about views on beliefs among theologians in the US? How did they deal with working around confounding factors like theological commitments, or the theologians who work at the universities that require statements of faith? It looks like there are ~270 higher theological institutions in the US, 70+% of which are Reformed, Evangelical, Orthodox, and Roman Catholic. I would love to see that study and its methodologies.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
It's the 'omni' prefix that makes them equal. They both thus claim total knowledge and total power.
The total power to do what though? It wouldn't be total power if it couldn't override omniscience. And we may not seem like very complicated beings, but maybe we are at the novelty edge, to where free-will is allowed. Or, I suppose it wouldn't be 'allowed,' but it would actually be in-built. That explains partly why we aren't very powerful physically, and are just weak biological things, as God doesn't want to create a bigger God, even though I suppose he could
By definition God could only do that at the expense of [his] omniscience.
Well yeah, he got bored, like I said. Otherwise it would just be gorgonopsids forever
 
It was not. Your case was that "Even among Christians" the classical view of Christianity "has largely died out." You called out scholarship as a special instance with "and especially within the scholarship."

Do you have a study that talks about views on beliefs among theologians in the US? How did they deal with working around confounding factors like theological commitments, or the theologians who work at the universities that require statements of faith? It looks like there are ~270 higher theological institutions in the US, 70+% of which are Reformed, Evangelical, Orthodox, and Roman Catholic. I would love to see that study and its methodologies.
So let's just reframe this. If one rejects the Classical view of God, as some do, then the issues listen in the comment I responded to don't matter. There.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
So let's just reframe this. If one rejects the Classical view of God, as some do, then the issues listen in the comment I responded to don't matter. There.
If one rejects the Classical view of God, as some do, then the issues [listed] in the comment [you] responded to don't matter to that one.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Did you mean that it can mean simply that in situation A we can decide what to do or not do unless there are external constraints and pressures?[/i]
That seems to follow.
I do not think that we can decide what to do or not do even if there are external constraints and pressures.
I think we are limited in the choices that we can make because the choices we make are 'determined' by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances.
That's one way of looking at it. But the subjective view, often found in court decisions, for instance, doesn't go into why you might prefer vanilla to pumpkin icecream, or prefer to go shopping than to watch reruns of NCIS on TV, or make, or cancel, a booking at Le Ridiculement Cher Restaurant, or decide to see a dentist either asap or next month.
Even if that is the case, then you have to ask what causes the very complex sequences of biochemical and bioelectrical cause+effect, which produce our decisions. Does anyone know? If you do not know what causes these you cannot know that there is no freedom.
Evolution has equipped us not only with sensory input by which we're made aware of the world around us, but a range of responses to it, of which one famous example is fight-or-flight. This equipment makes us fall in love, find someone very boring, experience anxiety about a range of things, &c &c.
Moreover, even if these are what takes place and produces our decisions, unless we know what is causing these sequences of biochemical and bioelectrical sequences, we cannot know that the soul is not producing them.
A lot of research has gone on and is going on about the human endocrine system, the functions of testosterone, oxytocin, adrenaline, on and on down a long list. And it's the brain and its built-in filters that cause or cease to cause them to be released, as the situation appears to require. I used to follow that research more closely than I do these days, but it's all out there, starting where everything starts, in Wikipedia.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
if we reject the idea of the classical view of God, then the issues that you discuss really aren't not issues.
Agreed. I noted as much in the post to which you responded. Claiming a tri-omni deity rules this world with all of its imperfections creates contradictions that all go away when we relax that claim. These were my words:

"I think I'd modify my description of the god from tri-omni to something else. This god doesn't care about our problems, or is powerless to help, or is indifferent to man's suffering. The world is consistent with such a god. Could you worship such a god? You could throw out all of the mental gymnastics. There'd be nothing to explain or justify."

As the description of gods evolve, they become increasingly less relevant. You just limited the deity a bit more when you wrote, "if you look at things like process theology, or liberation theology, the view of God you often get is one that is self-limiting or is limited in some manner."

Others tell us that the concerns of gods don't include the concerns of man, or that God is the source of everything whatever that may be, or that God is nature (pantheism) or the laws of nature (Einstein).

As you can see, we can just disregard whatever it is such people are referring to and live as atheists or deists do. There is no scripture or commandments to concern oneself with and nothing to pray to. One just calls reality God or describes a god that does nothing that we need to know about or concern ourselves with.
 
Agreed. I noted as much in the post to which you responded. Claiming a tri-omni deity rules this world with all of its imperfections creates contradictions that all go away when we relax that claim. These were my words:

"I think I'd modify my description of the god from tri-omni to something else. This god doesn't care about our problems, or is powerless to help, or is indifferent to man's suffering. The world is consistent with such a god. Could you worship such a god? You could throw out all of the mental gymnastics. There'd be nothing to explain or justify."

As the description of gods evolve, they become increasingly less relevant. You just limited the deity a bit more when you wrote, "if you look at things like process theology, or liberation theology, the view of God you often get is one that is self-limiting or is limited in some manner."

Others tell us that the concerns of gods don't include the concerns of man, or that God is the source of everything whatever that may be, or that God is nature (pantheism) or the laws of nature (Einstein).

As you can see, we can just disregard whatever it is such people are referring to and live as atheists or deists do. There is no scripture or commandments to concern oneself with and nothing to pray to. One just calls reality God or describes a god that does nothing that we need to know about or concern ourselves with.
This isn't an evolution really of the concept of God though. The Classical View of God is not the original view of God. It was one view that evolved over time, while it didn't really get to it's present form until relatively recently.

The view that I spoke about, that we see in process theology, for example, really harkens back to a Jewish view of God that we see in Job. It's not a view that make God less relevant, as I would actually say that the Classical View of God in it's finished form, makes God virtually irrelevant.

I think a view that is in line with Liberation Theology makes God much more relevant, and it places more responsibility on humans. If one then takes the panentheistic view, which is often promoted in both process and liberation theology, then the relevancy of God becomes all the more important.

Now, one can certainly disregard all of this, and there is no issue with that. But just because one can do that, doesn't mean it's proper for everyone to do that, as such views don't work for all.
 
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