Questions for non-Muslims

[Taahir]

Heard of Uthman?

I haven't. Would you mind explaining?

 

[Sha'irullah]

I haven't. Would you mind explaining?

Uthman was the individual heavily known for destroying previous Qur'ans and standardizing them into the form you have now

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Just some questions out of curiosity. Not meaning to start a huge debate out of this, or offend anyone.

Do you accept/recognize that

1. The Qur'an has never been changed?

2. There are scientific miracles in the Qur'an that could not possibly have been known in the time it was revealed?

3. The style and structure of the Qur'an is extremely unique, and no one has been able to match the challenge of producing something like it?

Thank you to anyone who answers.

1)No.

2)No.

3)Yes, it's unique. No, it isn't without equal, and many other works of literature have surpassed it, in my opinion.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I wish to change my answer to question number one to "No". New evidence has come about.

 

[danieldemol]

Just some questions out of curiosity. Not meaning to start a huge debate out of this, or offend anyone.

Do you accept/recognize that

1. The Qur'an has never been changed?

2. There are scientific miracles in the Qur'an that could not possibly have been known in the time it was revealed?

3. The style and structure of the Qur'an is extremely unique, and no one has been able to match the challenge of producing something like it?

Thank you to anyone who answers.

1. I don't know the details about Uthman which I'm hearing for the first time, and don't know of other changes

2. They certainly could possibly have been known, it is just a little less probable (albeit not impossible) that an un-schooled person would have known so much.

3. The style and structure of the Qur'an are not to me what makes it truly special. To me what makes it special is the amazing transformative effect it had on the social conditions of the people of it's time.
Here is another book which is equal to it imo;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

You will probably find the Arabic version of it here if that is the language you are more comfortable reading;
Baha'i Reference Library

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Just some questions out of curiosity. Not meaning to start a huge debate out of this, or offend anyone.

Do you accept/recognize that

1. The Qur'an has never been changed?

2. There are scientific miracles in the Qur'an that could not possibly have been known in the time it was revealed?

3. The style and structure of the Qur'an is extremely unique, and no one has been able to match the challenge of producing something like it?

Thank you to anyone who answers.

1. I recognise that believers believe it has not been changed (I am of the understanding that this is largely backed up by non-islamic scholars though I have never heard anything about Uthman)

2. There is no such thing as a scientific miracle. If you mean that it incorporates scientific knowledge that was not readily known at the time - then I would recognise that if you interpret the text sufficiently then it can be adjusted to mean something similar to science while the ACTUAL science it might contain that was not readily known at the time may well have been known by well read authors (because even if it was not well known at the time, some scientific knowledge was around in very specific circles well in excess of a thousand years before it became widely known, such as the spherical nature of the planet)

3. No, I do not recognise this as being a meritorious assertion.

 

[Caladan]

Just some questions out of curiosity. Not meaning to start a huge debate out of this, or offend anyone.

Do you accept/recognize that

1. The Qur'an has never been changed?

Like others have already said, there were plenty of variations in the Quranic text before the Caliph Uthman ordered a single edition.

2. There are scientific miracles in the Qur'an that could not possibly have been known in the time it was revealed?

Non at all. I don't think Islamic science really took pace until a few centuries after the Quran was written.

3. The style and structure of the Qur'an is extremely unique, and no one has been able to match the challenge of producing something like it?

The same goes for the Hebrew Bible, Homer, and Beowulf. They all have a unique style.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Uthman was the individual heavily known for destroying previous Qur'ans and standardizing them into the form you have now

I think your misrepresenting what Uthman did..

He did not destroy ALL the previous Qurans..

There were several dialects (i.e british/american/aussie english) of arabic going around during the Prophet Muhammads time.. The Prophet would recite the Quran to the people in their dialect and they would write it down.

Durings Uthmans reign as the third caliph, there were differences in interpretation amongst the people arising from the difference in dialect, Uthman standardized the Quran only keeping the dialect of the Quraysh (Prophet Muhammads tribe). In fear of people arguing/fighting over which version/dialect of the Quran was correct.

As to question on this thread about the Quran being changed, then no the current version has NEVER been changed(punctuation marks have been added tho), it is as the Prophet recited it to the Tribe of Quraysh..

Sterling I seriously expect more from you being an ex-muslim.. but then again you seem to have confused so many Islamic concepts adding your personal twist to them. they no longer seem to be Islamic..just like you..

P.S For those wondering who Uthman is..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Affan, he was the third Caliph of Islam. I would like to clarify again, Uthman did not change the Quran, he standardized it into one version..which means he destroyed ALL the different versions leaving one of them.. can that be considered changing the Quran? It is important to note that the different versions merely different styles/dialects of arabic and not differing in its content.

For people who don't understand what a difference in dialect is...i.e 1)Nice flip flops! or Nice thongs (Aussies call flip flops thongs) 2)Delicious cookie or Delicious biscuit. (This would be the difference between American and Aussie english)

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

1. No
2. No
3. No

 

[Monotheist 101]

Here is another book which is equal to it imo;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

:clap

Do you mean the english version of this book is similar to the english translation of the Quran?

I just downloaded it in arabic, thanks for the link, after skimming through a few pages I have reached a conclusion that it's recitation is not even close to that of the oral Quran..

 

[danieldemol]

:clap

Do you mean the english version of this book is similar to the english translation of the Quran?

I just downloaded it in arabic, thanks for the link, after skimming through a few pages I have reached a conclusion that it's recitation is not even close to that of the oral Quran..

I'm doubtful you even took my time to read my point about the value of the Qur'an being related to social progress and NOT to do with style.

Why did you publish a picture of a non-covered Arab lady if you consider it immoral for women to publicly expose their hair?

 

[Monotheist 101]

Why did you publish a picture of a non-covered Arab lady if you consider it immoral for women to publicly expose their hair?

Because it was funny :yes:

I am a very moderate Muslim, you have no idea what I consider immoral or moral..but good on you for trying..:thud:

EDIT:

I'm doubtful you even took my time to read my point about the value of the Qur'an being related to social progress and NOT to do with style.

Lol thats a new one, due you honestly think this book you refrenced has had the same social effect the Quran has had?

 

[danieldemol]

Also, just as an aside, the Iqan was not written in Arabic, only translated to it.

I can't read Farsi (or any language other than English), however it is said to be Persian prose.

Shoghi Effendi's statements on it appear similar to statements made by Cambridge Orientalist Edward Granville Brown;

"Shoghi Effendi describes Baha'u'llah's style as "a model of Persian prose, of a style at once original, chaste and vigorous, and remarkably lucid, both cogent in argument and matchless in its irresistible eloquence" (God Passes By 138-139). This assessment appears to be based on E. G. Browne, who wrote of the Iqan that "it is a work of great merit, vigorous in style, clear in argument, cogent in proof, and displaying no slight knowledge of the Bible, Qur'an, and Traditions" (Selections, 254)."

Quote from Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and the Sun of Iqan (Certainty)

 

[danieldemol]

Because it was funny :yes:

I am a very moderate Muslim, you have no idea what I consider immoral or moral..but good on you for trying..:thud:

So it is not immoral to go without Hijab in your opinion?

Lol thats a new one, due you honestly think this book you refrenced has had the same social effect the Quran has had?

If you are comparing 1400 years of influence to 150 years, I would say we need more time to judge, however I do consider the Kitab-I-Iqan equal in socially transformative value to the Qur'an, yes. It teaches the highest of moral standards and quenches the fires of fanaticism often associated with Islamic eschatological literalism. Did you not read even the opening paragraphs? It certainly enjoins morality on people.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Also, just as an aside, the Iqan was not written in Arabic, only translated to it.

I can't read Farsi (or any language other than English), however it is said to be Persian prose.

Shoghi Effendi's statements on it appear similar to statements made by Cambridge Orientalist Edward Granville Brown;

"Shoghi Effendi describes Baha'u'llah's style as "a model of Persian prose, of a style at once original, chaste and vigorous, and remarkably lucid, both cogent in argument and matchless in its irresistible eloquence" (God Passes By 138-139). This assessment appears to be based on E. G. Browne, who wrote of the Iqan that "it is a work of great merit, vigorous in style, clear in argument, cogent in proof, and displaying no slight knowledge of the Bible, Qur'an, and Traditions" (Selections, 254)."

Quote from Baha'u'llah's Book of Certitude and the Sun of Iqan (Certainty)

How did Bahaullah accept the challenge of the Quran and produce something like it? How is it like it when it isn't even in arabic..

Persian prose

compared to arabic "rhymed prose" as it partakes of both poetry and prose..

Also I doubt Bahais recite the persian everyday like the muslims do the arabic.. after all what is written is not the Quran, the Quran is the recitation.. root word Iqra (recite)

I think it's safe to say that the book you refrenced is not comparable to the Quran in content, style, language or social effect brought about..

anywho we shouldnt be derailing this thread.. I apologize if I have offended you :sorry1:

Peace

 

[Monotheist 101]

So it is not immoral to go without Hijab in your opinion?

I think you should MYOB :slap:, why concern yourself with what I believe

If you are comparing 1400 years of influence to 150 years, I would say we need more time to judge, however I do consider the Kitab-I-Iqan equal in socially transformative value to the Qur'an, yes. It teaches the highest of moral standards and quenches the fires of fanaticism often associated with Islamic eschatological literalism. Did you not read even the opening paragraphs? It certainly enjoins morality on people.

Thats good for you mate, I have read this book I cannot for the life of me buy into Bahaullahs lofty claims..I just cant..he seems to be clutching at straws IMO..I am glad you find such a deep meaning and that it has such an effect on you..(according to you guys we are in heaven because we have been resurrected already)..enjoy your heaven..

I see no point in having this discussion, especially here..:faint:

Peace and Good luck.

 

[fantome profane]

Just some questions out of curiosity. Not meaning to start a huge debate out of this, or offend anyone.

Do you accept/recognize that

1. The Qur'an has never been changed?

2. There are scientific miracles in the Qur'an that could not possibly have been known in the time it was revealed?

3. The style and structure of the Qur'an is extremely unique, and no one has been able to match the challenge of producing something like it?

Thank you to anyone who answers.

No.

No.

Somewhat, but there have been many unique works of literature in human history.

 

[danieldemol]

I see no point in having this discussion, especially here..:faint:

Peace and Good luck.

It seems to me you posted a lot of questions and statements just to tell me not to discuss it here, however I would have to say that I see no point in discussing something with someone requesting a conversation to be closed, so I will respect your request.

 

[Monotheist 101]

It seems to me you posted a lot of questions and statements just to tell me not to discuss it here, however I would have to say that I see no point in discussing something with someone requesting a conversation to be closed, so I will respect your request.

I see no point derailing a thread..if you like we can discuss it in some other thread.

 

[Riverwolf]

That's the problem with the Qur'an's challenge: it's so vague that exactly what is meant by "reproduce its like" is a topic of debate, and I've seen many different interpretations.