Questions on the big bang expanding universe.

[Native]

I'm sorry, but it really is blindingly obvious to anybody who has studied the subjects that this guy is a charlatan.

And I´m sorry that you apparently are allergic against logical criticism and arguments

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Not sure what you're trying to say here. You can't have any activity, or an observer, for that matter, without time. I see no reason why you'd need both.

So time is a human concept that arises in the timeless womb of existence. Science nor any other discipline for that matter can deal with timelessness for it is non-dual, all that exists within are in fact a part of the one timeless existence. True religious practice otoh is meant to still the mind so that the mind is one with the timeless.

Please feel free to question me further if you feel like it, critical or other...

 

[ratiocinator]

And I´m sorry that you apparently are allergic against logical criticism and arguments

He seriously doesn't have any but let's put it to the test, shall we? You pick something that you think is a valid point from the video and I'll address it specifically.

 

[ratiocinator]

So time is a human concept that arises in the timeless womb of existence.

Except that it isn't. The objective evidence tells us that it's a direction through space-time.

 

[alsome]

So many circles around this bush, but there isn't really a "bush" is there ?

 

[Native]

He seriously doesn't have any but let's put it to the test, shall we? You pick something that you think is a valid point from the video and I'll address it specifically.

Thanks but no thanks. You´ve already provided my daily portion of emotional comments

 

[Native]

The objective evidence tells us that it's a direction through space-time.

In what direction then does "time" move in "space-time"?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I rather think the time-problem occurs when humans initially took celestial observations to count for annual motions everywhere but later on, "time" was connected cosmologically with lengths in cosmos.. In this initial cyclical perception of "time" this concept became a linear time perception to decribe cosmos in general, including the strange theory of a Big Bang.

In other words, the ancient cultures percieved everything to be cyclical and eternal contrary to modern science which in fact have put everything into a dark cosmological hole of speculations, simply because of their linear thinking.

I understand Native, but any and all concepts of linear time arise from duality, an observer and that observed. The true nature of existence is a timeless unity, all apparent activity within the timeless that appears to human perception as happening in linear time is somewhat a relative illusion, aka maya. Still, science based on linear time does penetrate with the math, etc., to some extent the underlying nature of the timeless existence that is hidden in plain sight to those whose mind is not caught up exclusively in the dualistic liner time mindset.

 

[ratiocinator]

Thanks but no thanks. You´ve already provided my daily portion of emotional comments

Lack of the courage of your convictions is noted. I also made some very specific points that showed exactly where his lack of understand and/or honesty was particularly obvious and you've not addressed those either.

In what direction then does "time" move in "space-time"?

It doesn't move and different observers time direction through space-time may well be different - that's why you get, for example, time dilation and why it's symmetrical.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Except that it isn't. The objective evidence tells us that it's a direction through space-time.

Ok, what then is the objective relationship between space-time and the timeless existence in which space-time exists?

 

[Native]

I understand Native, but any and all concepts of linear time arise from duality, an observer and that observed. The true nature of existence is a timeless unity, all apparent activity within the timeless that appears to human perception as happening in linear time is somewhat a relative illusion, aka maya.

Agreed in large

Still, science based on linear time does penetrate with the math, etc., to some extent the underlying nature of the timeless existence that is hidden in plain sight to those whose mind is not caught up exclusively in the dualistic liner time mindset.

Even here, modern science is overhauled by the ancient perception that everything undergoes a process of formation, dissolution and re-formation i.e. an eternal proces in which the modern math is totally lost as it cannot describe the cyclical processes. Just take the invention of a "black hole" where math brakes completely together.

You cannot even trust the scientific math of a wooden board as it constantly changes by temperature - as everything else in the cosmos.

 

[ratiocinator]

Ok, what then is the objective relationship between space-time and the timeless existence in which space-time exists?

As I keep saying, you have a four-dimensional manifold (object) that contains time as one of the directions though it. I don't get why you find this so difficult.

Perhaps if you imagine that the surface of the earth represents space-time, with two of the three spacial dimensions suppressed, so (say) north-south represents time, with (say) north as the future, and east-west represents space. Then if we follow time, we start at the south pole (the BB), where space has zero size, then go north, and see that space expands until the equator. In this toy universe, space would then contract again into a 'big crunch' at the north pole (we we don't think is likely for the real universe). Anyway, in this picture, time is a direction on the surface of the earth, so the earth itself simply wouldn't experience time.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Agreed in large

Even here, modern science is overhauled by the ancient perception that everything undergoes a process of formation, dissolution and re-formation i.e. an eternal proces in which the modern math is totally lost as it cannot describe the cyclical processes. Just take the invention of a "black hole" where math brakes completely together.

You cannot even trust the scientific math of a wooden board as it constantly changes by temperature - as everything else in the cosmos.

I understand and agree, but it is all due process, science, like practically every other area of human mind conditioning opportunity, has been corrupted, the karma of it all is upon the planet as we speak, big time, as you are aware.

 

[Native]

Lack of the courage of your convictions is noted. I also made some very specific points that showed exactly where his lack of understand and/or honesty was particularly obvious and you've not addressed those either.

I knew you´ll come up with this strawman argument And of course you didn´t grasped my points in the video "dimension discussion".

 

[ratiocinator]

I knew you´ll come up with this strawman argument

Where's the straw man?

And of course you didn´t grasped my points in the "dimension discussion".

Where was that?

 

[Native]

Where's the straw man?

Look in your mirror

Where was that?

Do you suffer from some kind of dementia? Go back in the thread and find it yourself.

 

[ratiocinator]

Look in your mirror

A person can't be a straw man argument.

Go back in the thread and find it yourself.

Can't be bothered, frankly - I've posted a lot over the past few days. If you want point out where I supposedly didn't grasp something about dimensions, feel free, otherwise don't.

All this to avoid actually trying to defend the scientifically illiterate video you posted....

 

[alsome]

I'm pretty dumb here, but, what "objective evidence" do you have ? I'm missing something here I'm sure, or not, I lost the bush we were circling around.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

As I keep saying, you have a four-dimensional manifold (object) that contains time as one of the directions though it. I don't get why you find this so difficult.

Perhaps if you imagine that the surface of the earth represents space-time, with two of the three spacial dimensions suppressed, so (say) north-south represents time, with (say) north as the future, and east-west represents space. Then if we follow time, we start at the south pole (the BB), where space has zero size, then go north, and see that space expands until the equator. In this toy universe, space would then contract again into a 'big crunch' at the north pole (we we don't think is likely for the real universe). Anyway, in this picture, time is a direction on the surface of the earth, so the earth itself simply wouldn't experience time.

Why not visualize it as it is, and not through analogy? I don't have a problem visualizing the concept of the timeless source's manifested universe we see and the relationship thereof between the source and its expression. I see time directly as the unfolding progress of manifested existence. There is only one timeless source and thus any and all distinctions made as to its integral parts are conceptual, for it forever remains singular. The objective relationship between any conceptualized part, eg, space, star, human, etc, and the timeless source is one of being a part expression of it..

 

[ratiocinator]

Why not visualize it as it is, and not through analogy?

Because you don't seem to understand the concept - as demonstrated here:

I don't have a problem visualizing the concept of the timeless source's manifested universe we see and the relationship thereof between the source and its expression.

There is no "timeless source" - we aren't talking about a source of any kind, it's more like a container. Remember, this is a theory for which we have extensive evidence, not a baseless intuitive or religious belief.