Union
Well-Known Member
Wow, is that really so... it seems like I've been reading a different Quran than yours my entire life
Believe me , it was the same Qur'an .
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Questions to Quranists
- Thread starter egcroc
- Start date
Believe me , it was the same Qur'an .
Union
Well-Known Member
Good point . But friendly discussion please . If it turns to debate , then let us open another new thread in debate section . Sorry , it is a DIR Policy . Thanks .
egcroc
we're all stardust
Alright, but remember you're the one who set these rules... we'll try to understand the verses from the Quran alone... nothing else involved
Here we Go...
Exhibit 1
Quran 9:29Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Yes taxes are payable by force if someone refused to pay it Voluntarily.
Muslims pay it in the form of Zakat.
Now we pay taxes to spend it on wars and not to help the poors in this world.
Taxes is also payable by force in our modern days,just try as an indivual to say "hey,you *******, why i have to pay you a tax" and see then what will happen to you.
Simply you'll receive a warning letters,then fines,then they will have control over your bank account or your house..etc and then it may end you in the prison.
This is a friendly discussion and not kind of debate.
if you think taxation is a bad idea then be a hero and stop it from happening in our modern world,i will be with you just by my wishes.
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Union
Well-Known Member
Hi all . In addition , the verse 9.29 didn't prescribe the fight against the innocent people from the disbelievers rather those who only fight/fought against the Believers . It becomes quite evident while you try to search the background and context of the verse which was just mentioned in some preceding verses :
[009:025] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[009:026] Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Apostle and upon the believers, and sent down soldiers which you did not see , and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[009:027] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[009:028] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
[009:029] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Hence 'fight those' in verse 9.29 refers to those who already engaged in fighting with the Muslim army as mentioned 9.25 & 9.26 .
Nevertheless from the very beginning of this chapter fighting is ordered against the Kafir and Mushreek who waged wars against the Muslim , evicted them from their homesteads , repealed them from the Sacred Mosque and broke the peace treaty . Hence all those issues should be lumped together to reach to the final action of battle against them in verse 9.29 .
And of course nothing wrong to impose tax upon them when they were defeated after such hostility, again to secure them in a state .
[009:025] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[009:026] Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Apostle and upon the believers, and sent down soldiers which you did not see , and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[009:027] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[009:028] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
[009:029] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Hence 'fight those' in verse 9.29 refers to those who already engaged in fighting with the Muslim army as mentioned 9.25 & 9.26 .
Nevertheless from the very beginning of this chapter fighting is ordered against the Kafir and Mushreek who waged wars against the Muslim , evicted them from their homesteads , repealed them from the Sacred Mosque and broke the peace treaty . Hence all those issues should be lumped together to reach to the final action of battle against them in verse 9.29 .
And of course nothing wrong to impose tax upon them when they were defeated after such hostility, again to secure them in a state .
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egcroc
we're all stardust
you made a big mistake in translation here my friend, which makes me wonder if your native language is indeed arabic
here's the original verse in arabic
قَاتِلُوا الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلَا بِالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَلَا يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلَا يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ حَتَّىٰ يُعْطُوا الْجِزْيَةَ عَنْ يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ
the word allatheena الذين doesn't originally mean "those", it's not meant to refer to the pagans in the chapter's beginning.... and it's clearly indicated in the text that the target of this verse is "the people of the book"... jews and christians
you missed the main point... the verse orders clearly that muslims wage wars against the unbelievers, particularly the people of the book, in order to subjugate them and then take their money by force... why bring up the taxes subject
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
It is about pagans ( لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ ) which means not believers of the God which the jews and chriatians follow and (وَلَا بِالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ) which means not believers of the hereafter and the jews and christians believe about the hereafter,so it is clearly the verse is about the pagans.
I showed you that it isn't the people of the book,because the people of the book believe that God does exist and they believe about the hereafter,but still even the people of the book have to pay for the tax,no one is excempted except the poors.
For example the muslims in USA will pay for the US government regardless if USA is an Islamic state or not,i had aleady explained it to you that taxation is a normal thing .
Now lets say the people of Texas refused to pay their taxes which means they want to be liberated from the United States,so according to the verse the people should follow the law Voluntarily or by force (police,guns..etc).
The verse is conditional,paying the taxes is the condition.
in few words pay the tax Voluntarily otherwise by force.
So that is the normal thing in order to manage one country and even for the whole world.
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egcroc
we're all stardust
hey there, sorry for being away for quite a while...
back on our topic, there's a problem I've noticed with many muslims (and other religious people to be fair)... they tend to twist the scripts and impose certain interpretations to serve whatever meaning they're trying to deliver, especially on English forums where most people can't understand the original language of the text..
you guys have to understand that unlike many other former muslims, I'm trying to be respectful to muslim beliefs and not be too aggressive or insulting, but on the other hand you need to show some respect to my intelligence and the fact that I'm a native arabic speaker and try not to give me some lame interpretations based on blatant grammatical errors...
this reminds me of how Christians are trying to hide the fact that the bible is speaking of mythical creatures like dragons by just translating the word in the new copies to serpents or crocodiles
I'm sorry if that sounded a little offensive but that's really the nicest way I could put it
Peace,
:camp:
back on our topic, there's a problem I've noticed with many muslims (and other religious people to be fair)... they tend to twist the scripts and impose certain interpretations to serve whatever meaning they're trying to deliver, especially on English forums where most people can't understand the original language of the text..
you guys have to understand that unlike many other former muslims, I'm trying to be respectful to muslim beliefs and not be too aggressive or insulting, but on the other hand you need to show some respect to my intelligence and the fact that I'm a native arabic speaker and try not to give me some lame interpretations based on blatant grammatical errors...
this reminds me of how Christians are trying to hide the fact that the bible is speaking of mythical creatures like dragons by just translating the word in the new copies to serpents or crocodiles
I'm sorry if that sounded a little offensive but that's really the nicest way I could put it
Peace,
:camp:
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
So it is better for you to discuss your doubts in Arabic forums.
This is an international forum and we have to use the english language.
egcroc
we're all stardust
1- I'm saying that as a native arabic speaker, I find some severe errors in the translations and interpretations here, and when you try to impose them upon me as true... I feel really offended
2- I do not like arabic forums, simply because the rationality and mutual respect that are taken for granted in international forums are absent there...
3- since you brought this up, a quick visit to arabic Slafist or Jihadist forums will be more than enough to show you the true image of islam... they do not feel ashamed of the dark side of Islam, they bring it and discuss it openly simply because they find nothing wrong with it... they see the verse I brought up in its true interpretation... not trying to get around it like you are trying to do here
egcroc
we're all stardust
let's just move on and leave this point behind...
Exhibit 2:
Child Marriage
وَالَّلائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَالَّلائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلاتُ الأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
Exhibit 2:
Child Marriage
وَالَّلائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَالَّلائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلاتُ الأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
The verse is self explanatory and it is about the divorced women.
There is menstrual women and menopause women.
The menopause women should wait three months before they are allowed to marry other men and the menstrual women who haven't their course yet (delayed) which means they are in the first stage of pregnancy and for the pregnant ones should wait till they deliver their burden.
No,it isn't about baby marriage,i swear my life for it.
Union
Well-Known Member
'Lam' <not> is the past negative particle which can point a start period anytime of the past life , not necessarily from the date of birth . The term you may hunt 'Kalla' which means 'not at all' .
Remember the title of the chapter is 'Divorce' and the period of this observation of menstruation of those 03 categories of women also start from the time of divorce . Read along :
[065:001] O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately), their prescribed periods: And fear God your Lord: and turn them not out of their houses, nor shall they (themselves) leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness, those are limits set by God: and any who transgresses the limits of God, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance God will bring about thereafter some new situation.
[065:002] Thus when they fulfil their term appointed, either take them back on equitable terms or part with them on equitable terms; and take for witness two persons from among you, endued with justice, and establish the evidence (as) before God. Such is the admonition given to him who believes in God and the Last Day. And for those who fear God, He (ever) prepares a way out,
[065:003] And He provides for him from (sources) he never could imagine. And if any one puts his trust in God, sufficient is (God) for him. For God will surely accomplish his purpose: verily, for all things has God appointed a due proportion.
[065:004] Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear God, He will make their path easy.
Hence verse 65.04 is not talking about the infant rather a woman who didn't menstruate from the time of divorce . It is always the other 20 days apart from 10 days of noraml period of menstruation of women . Thanks .
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Thank you egcroc,we are all students here.
My view about the marriage of Aisha and the way of describing her playing with a doll and swinging to give an intended intimation of being a child to be a false accusation.
Lien
Member
The availability of resources other than the Holy Quran is something completely invented subsequently . Also Allah say Quran is enough for believers and dont follow anything other than Quran .
egcroc
we're all stardust
Hey, I'm back with a new Question, Most muslims from both major sects of islam view Quranists as Heretics because they reject the Sunnah, and their evidence comes from the Quran itself
مَنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ [النساء:80].
وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا [الحشر:7]
As well as many other verses, How Do Quranists respond to that?!!
in addition, and as a little gift to my friend Union, I found a good article over the internet written by a Quranist trying to imply that from a pure Quranic POV (putting the sunna aside) the theory of evolution does not necissarily contradict the Quran and could be compatible with it... I wanted to share this good read with you
٠سÙÙ ÙÙ ÙÙÙÙ: ÙظرÙØ© اÙتطÙر ÙاÙÙرأÙ
مَنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ [النساء:80].
وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا [الحشر:7]
As well as many other verses, How Do Quranists respond to that?!!
in addition, and as a little gift to my friend Union, I found a good article over the internet written by a Quranist trying to imply that from a pure Quranic POV (putting the sunna aside) the theory of evolution does not necissarily contradict the Quran and could be compatible with it... I wanted to share this good read with you
٠سÙÙ ÙÙ ÙÙÙÙ: ÙظرÙØ© اÙتطÙر ÙاÙÙرأÙ
Union
Well-Known Member
Good to see you my friend .
مَنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللَّهَ [النساء:80].Ref. :What does Obey GOD and obey the Messenger really mean ?
وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا [الحشر:7]Ref. :59.7 Take what messenger gives and abstain from what heforbids
Though I am not a native Arab , whatever I understood from that article , it appears to me interesting . Thanks for that
egcroc
we're all stardust
thanks for the clarification my friend