Quran 36 v 38

[Raymann]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
I thought Muslims would have had an easy explanation for the meaning of this verse.
I was wrong. Nadir Ahmed (a Muslim apologist) who claims there are no scientific errors in the Quran answered my message but when pressed hard he didn't answer and quit the conversation.
Answering-Christianity responded this way to Answering-Islam:
Answering-Islam said; "..it is obvious from the Qur'an (chapter 36:38) that the sun ran then settled down. The verse says: "And the sun runs on into a resting place." "
Answering-Christianity responded, no it's not obvious because this is referring to when the sun stops
Any Muslim has a better answer to this. I just want to know what Allah meant by that in an easy English translation.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Nothing particularly controversial.

In Tafsir Ibn Katheer it says about that passage:


﴿ وَٱلشَّمۡسُ تَجۡرِى لِمُسۡتَقَرٍّ۬ لَّهَا‌ۚ ﴾
(And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term. ) He said:

« مُسْتَقَرُّهَا تَحْتَ الْعَرْش »
(Its fixed course is beneath the Throne.)'' (The second view) is that this refers to when the sun's appointed time comes to an end, which will be on the Day of Resurrection, when its fixed course will be abolished, it will come to a halt and it will be rolled up. This world will come to an end, and that will be the end of its appointed time. This is the fixed course of its time. Qatadah said:

﴿ لِمُسۡتَقَرٍّ۬ لَّهَا‌ۚ ﴾
(on its fixed course for a term (appointed).) means, "It has an appointed time and it will not go beyond that.'' It was also said that this means, it keeps moving in its summer orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that, then it moves to its winter orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that. This was narrated from `Abdullah bin `Amr, may Allah be pleased with him. Ibn Mas`ud and Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them, recited this Ayah as: (وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لَامُسْتَقَرَّ لَهَا) (And the sun runs with no fixed course for a term,) meaning that it has no destination and it does not settle in one place, rather it keeps moving night and day, never slowing down or stopping, as in the Ayah:

﴿ وَسَخَّرَ لَكُمُ ٱلشَّمۡسَ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ دَآٮِٕبَيۡنِ‌ۖ ﴾
(And He has made the sun and the moon, both constantly pursuing their courses, to be of service to you) (14:33). which means, they will never slow down or stop, until the Day of Resurrection.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

From Sayyid Abdul Husayn Dastghaib Shirazi's tafsir of Surah Yaseen: (which is a Shi'ite source, seeing that Ibn Katheer is a Sunni source, both agree)

"And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it…" (Surah 36:38)

According to some it conveys that the sun is moving and it is the movement of it going around the earth. Now this is against the facts. The sun along with its constellation system is moving towards a very big star, Nasr and which is finally named ‘Wakaa’. When it reaches the star, the age of the constellation of sun will come to an end.

Thus the resting place of the sun is that huge star. That will be the time when it will be Resurrection (Qiyamat). It is also said in modern astronomy that the constellation of the sun is in its last age. When the sun will fall from its course, its brightness will cease, just like our own age.

When its end arrives all the signs of our life will also end. This movement of the sun is not eternal and it will one day reach its resting place.

 

[sun rise]

Besides the excellent posts of @VoidoftheSun here are 6 translations. Again, it's vital to not assume that a translation is accurate. Given Quranic Arabic's structure, I agree with Muslims who assert that it can't really be translated properly. To me the problem of translation is well illustrated by these:

36:38

Khalifa The sun sets into a specific location, according to the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.

Yusuf Ali And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

Pickthal And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Shakir And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Sher Ali And the sun is moving on to its determined goal. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing God.

"Progressive Muslims" And the sun runs to a specific destination, such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Besides the excellent posts of @VoidoftheSun here are 6 translations.

I'll also add that in so many cases there are very direct riddles in many places such as this.
In verse (ayat) 40, it says that "the Sun can't overtake the night nor can the night outstrip the day", this makes it alone (let alone all the other references) impossible for in the Quranic view for the Sun to have any "setting" etc. The only setting is when the whole universe is destroyed (something Christian texts also speak of). The verse in question from the OP (being 38) also speaks of a finality not a cycle (as in "when the sun finally does such and such").
And if that wasn't enough, ayat 39 makes it quite definite that is an eschatological passage because it mentions the Moon becoming a dry palm leaf.
The Sun is also (in other Surahs) said to get "blackened" near the end of time which is another hint.

Anyway, Qur'an demands and requires deep reading and reflection, it's something you live, not simply read.
The Qur'an sure does know how to make an idiot of people

God bless brother

 

[Samael_Khan]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
I thought Muslims would have had an easy explanation for the meaning of this verse.
I was wrong. Nadir Ahmed (a Muslim apologist) who claims there are no scientific errors in the Quran answered my message but when pressed hard he didn't answer and quit the conversation.
Answering-Christianity responded this way to Answering-Islam:
Answering-Islam said; "..it is obvious from the Qur'an (chapter 36:38) that the sun ran then settled down. The verse says: "And the sun runs on into a resting place." "
Answering-Christianity responded, no it's not obvious because this is referring to when the sun stops
Any Muslim has a better answer to this. I just want to know what Allah meant by that in an easy English translation.

I have seen many of Nadir Ahmed's videos. The guy is just a walking troll. He is a disgrace to Muslim apologists everywhere, just like Muhammed Hijab.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

I have seen many of Nadir Ahmed's videos. The guy is just a walking troll. He is a disgrace to Muslim apologists everywhere, just like Muhammed Hijab.

I feel like that about apologists in general though, whether Christian, Muslim or Atheist etc.

 

[stvdv]

Any Muslim has a better answer to this. I just want to know what Allah meant by that in an easy English translation.

And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

IMO:
I am not a Muslim, and many verses in the Koran are "not obvious". Finally a verse that is very simple to understand

The sun will not shine forever, so it is running towards it stopping point
Here the Koran (God) gives a hint that even the sun "dies" like humans "die"

 

[Samael_Khan]

I feel like that about apologists in general though, whether Christian, Muslim or Atheist etc.

There are degrees. Watching speakers corner is a good example to demonstrate this. Watch a Christian and Shia debate. It is decent and respectful. An atheist and a Christian will have a decent debate. Watch one of the Salafi Dawah team debate others and you see they use logical fallacies, interrupt and in general disrespect the debate. They aren't being honest and can't tolerate criticism.

Muhammed Hijab has been shown to doctor debates and be very selective in what he portrays to his audience. He also insults people. Nadir Ahmed is just rude to people and condescending when he has no right to be and he can't handle criticism.

People like Shabir Allie, James White, etc, are good examples of how to have a decent debate. The others are trying to manipulate their audience through emotive language in order to distract them from the actual argument and sound confident.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

There are degrees. Watching speakers corner is a good example to demonstrate this. Watch a Christian and Shia debate. It is decent and respectful. An atheist and a Christian will have a decent debate. Watch one of the Salafi Dawah team debate others and you see they use logical fallacies, interrupt and in general disrespect the debate. They aren't being honest and can't tolerate criticism.

Muhammed Hijab has been shown to doctor debates and be very selective in what he portrays to his audience. He also insults people. Nadir Ahmed is just rude to people and condescending when he has no right to be and he can't handle criticism.

People like Shabir Allie, James White, etc, are good examples of how to have a decent debate. The others are trying to manipulate their audience through emotive language in order to distract them from the actual argument and sound confident.

I've never understood why speakers corner is even a meme, why it's popular. Aside from that, I've never found a single thing associated with it that was worth time watching, period. On any subject (yes people debate non-religious stuff there too).

 

[Samael_Khan]

I've never understood why speakers corner is even a meme, why it's popular. Aside from that, I've never found a single thing associated with it that was worth time watching, period. On any subject (yes people debate non-religious stuff there too).

I was interested in it as an introduction to certain religions but generally one watched just to see another religion caught out. It was never any god for in depth study which is why I don't watch it anymore. But it did reveal a lot about the base character of certain people and what they represented.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
I thought Muslims would have had an easy explanation for the meaning of this verse.

Qur'an is in Arabic and the translation, English; so there are bound to be misunderstandings. I do not think Qur'an's word will translate into stopping. It indicates a sort of rest for sun at the night in West (if some one is in India, then in the direction of Mecca). That is sometimes mentions in Hindu scriptures also. It is like the Hindu or Buddhism word 'dharma' which should not be translated into 'religion'. That happens with Old Testament words also. These meanings are actively debated in this forum as well as elsewhere.

 

[Raymann]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL 38 verses 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40
Exalted is He who created all pairs - from what the earth grows and from themselves and from that which they do not know.
And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are

in darkness.
"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

I'm trying to make sense of this.
Verse 36 doesn't seem to be part of the next verses, 37 to 40 seem to make sense together.
I would translate 38 in my own words as "And the sun runs towards the end of its natural life."
That's what most Muslim translations seem to agree as to the meaning.
Let's see them all together:
And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are
in darkness.
"And the sun runs towards the end of its natural life."
And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

It seems to me that Allah is simply describing a 24-hour cycle (day and night)
Now notice how verse 38 looks totally out of place if we use this common Muslim translation.
That doesn't make any sense in the whole context.
Anyone can think of a better translation to make sense of the 4 verses together?​

 

[VoidoftheSun]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL 38 verses 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40
Exalted is He who created all pairs - from what the earth grows and from themselves and from that which they do not know.
And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are

in darkness.
"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

I'm trying to make sense of this.
Verse 36 doesn't seem to be part of the next verses, 37 to 40 seem to make sense together.
I would translate 38 in my own words as "And the sun runs towards the end of its natural life."
That's what most Muslim translations seem to agree as to the meaning.
Let's see them all together:
And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are
in darkness.
"And the sun runs towards the end of its natural life."
And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

It seems to me that Allah is simply describing a 24-hour cycle (day and night)
Now notice how verse 38 looks totally out of place if we use this common Muslim translation.
That doesn't make any sense in the whole context.
Anyone can think of a better translation to make sense of the 4 verses together?​

For your comprehension, it's worth noting that the whole passage from ayat (verse) 33 up to 68 is one section/segment. The biggest emphasis of that section is very obviously eschatology and the passages you cite emphasize two particular aspects;

1. The obvious message (exemplified by verse 40) of the cycles (which is one of many dualities, you know yin/yang, that is a reoccurring of natural order etc).
2. The eschatological aspect which occurs in reference to the succeeding verse (39), this is picked up especially in verse 51 onwards where it starts explicitly speaking of eschatology, 'the trumpet blown' for instance has it's direct parallels to the suns end and the moon becoming like 'dry palm leaf'.

Basically that passage in 33-40 (roughly) that you highlighted, speaking of the natural order of things; has that underlying tension of the temporarily of that order, being a push towards the eschatological themes that become in the forefront in the passage from 51 onwards (as mentioned).

Hopefully that helps.

It's an amazing Surah, truly beautiful and comprehensive.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

It is like the Hindu or Buddhism word 'dharma' which should not be translated into 'religion'. That happens with Old Testament words also. These meanings are actively debated in this forum as well as elsewhere.

It's of course offtopic but with us it's the same thing with the word arbitrarily or erroneously translated as "religion".

There are several verses in the Qur'an that state "your Deen is Submission". Deen itself has a very specific connotation and Submission is a spiritual action, it is not synonymous with the english word "religion".
Deen itself in many ways has it's parallels with the concept of Dharma too, though they're not identical; however both can and do in some places represent ontological concepts.
In a lot of english translations they translate "your Deen is Submission" to "your Religion is Islam". It's incorrect and implies the wrong things.

The concept of "religion" though is very western and only really applies to the Catholic/Protestant kind of institutional tradition.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, that is right, VoidoftheSun. It is not easy to get the essence of the word in a different language and in a different time.
Of course, I am an atheist, so the rest of my views may be very different from yours.

 

[Raymann]

From the Thinking Muslim:
Hadith Explained: "The Sun Prostrates Under the Throne and Takes Permission to Rise Again" - The Thinking Muslim
It is reported by Al-Bukhari from Abu Dharr that once the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) asked him after sunset, “Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?”
He replied, “Allah and His Apostle know better.”
So the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) answered:
“It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it. Soon it will prostrate, but it will not be accepted from it, and it will ask for permission (to rise) but permission will not be given to it; it will be said to it: “Go back to where you came from.’ So it will rise from its place of setting and that is what Allah, may He be Glorified, refers to in the verse: ‘And the sun runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing (Qur’an 36:38)'”.

Ok, I see now why some people believe this verse is a clear indication the Quran is not from Allah.
Well, I'm not so sure about that. This hadith proves that Muhammad had no understanding of how the solar system works and therefore he believed the sun rises every morning after being in a resting position during the night. The sun needs permission from Allah to rise every morning and after the day it will go back into its resting position. One day permission will not be granted and that will be at the end of this world, (resurrection day).
The problem would be if Allah had said this is how the sun works but this hadith only says that is Muhammad who believed this. Now, why Muhammad believed this?. Is it based on Allah's words (revelations)?
Maybe some Muslims can answer this.

Did Allah reveal to Muhammad that the sun goes to a resting place every night and it will only go back up the next day if it is granted permission to do so?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The problem would be if Allah had said this is how the sun works but this hadith only says that is Muhammad who believed this. Now, why Muhammad believed this?. Is it based on Allah's words (revelations)?
Maybe some Muslims can answer this.

The heavenly word sun is not the earthly word sun

SUN is a keyword according to the law in the language of God.

The keywords are for the gates.



Example:


And ye shall be sorted out into three classes. Quran 56:7



NORTH - WEST - EAST


MOON - STAR - SUN


SPEAR - SWORD - BOW


STRAW - DUST - STUBBLE



The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 1 Corinthians 15:41

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2



I can show many more verses that reinforce the sun is being held in a fixed position not moving and can also explain a way of how the sun can change and appear in the west. If you are interested.

 

[Raymann]

The heavenly word sun is not the earthly word sun

Sounds very prophetic, deep and mysterious to me but I think I was looking more into the earthly kind of meaning since Muhammad was a human.
As an agnostic, my purpose is to uncover the true religion and God. The following quote are the words of Muhammad so I suppose he was talking about what you called "the earthly meaning of the word".

“It (The Sun) goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it. Soon it will prostrate, but it will not be accepted from it, and it will ask for permission (to rise) but permission will not be given to it;

A very controversial statement that puts Islam in an awkward position.
What did Muhammad mean?
Scientifically this is a total misinterpretation of how the solar system works and I don't see how Islam can explain it in a satisfactory way.
We all know that the sun never rises and never sets in any resting position.
It is actually us (the earth) that moves and makes the sun look like it's moving.
But this was written in the 7th century.
I don't think the use of "the heavenly word" meaning can help Islam make sense on this occasion, but if you can find a way to explain it by all means be my guest.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Sounds very prophetic, deep and mysterious to me but I think I was looking more into the earthly kind of meaning since Muhammad was a human.
As an agnostic, my purpose is to uncover the true religion and God. The following quote are the words of Muhammad so I suppose he was talking about what you called "the earthly meaning of the word".

A very controversial statement that puts Islam in an awkward position.
What did Muhammad mean?
Scientifically this is a total misinterpretation of how the solar system works and I don't see how Islam can explain it in a satisfactory way.
We all know that the sun never rises and never sets in any resting position.
It is actually us (the earth) that moves and makes the sun look like it's moving.
But this was written in the 7th century.
I don't think the use of "the heavenly word" meaning can help Islam make sense on this occasion, but if you can find a way to explain it by all means be my guest.

Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Psalm 148:3

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? Isaiah 66:1

Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psalm 95:11

My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. Jeremiah 50:6

MOON - STAR - SUN
VALLEY - HILL - MOUNTAIN
BRASS - SILVER - GOLD
CATTLE - GOATS - SHEEP

And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:17

Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen: Ezekiel 36:6


And the mountains will be like wool. Quran 70:9


Earthly words do not make sense. But heavenly words do make sense.