Quran 36 v 38

[Raymann]

After some reading, the answer is here:
Prophet Muhammad provides the answer. Here is part of the hadith:
"So it (the Sun) will rise from its place of setting and that is what Allah, may He be Glorified, refers to in the verse: ‘And the sun runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing (Qur’an 36:38)'”.
So Quran 36, reads as follow:
37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

This whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
The hadith continues:
"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."
So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.
The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

I am not a Muslim, and many verses in the Koran are "not obvious". Finally a verse that is very simple to understand

The sun will not shine forever, so it is running towards it stopping point
Here the Koran (God) gives a hint that even the sun "dies" like humans "die"

See, most of you ignore the fact that the sun stops every 24 hours in its resting place where Allah decides to give or not permission for the sun to rise again.

Thus the resting place of the sun is that huge star. That will be the time when it will be Resurrection (Qiyamat).

This star is the final resting place and not the 24-hour cycle resting place mentioned by the prophet Muhammad.
As the hadith mentions there would be a time when permission would be denied, the sun would not rise again. (resurrection day)

Understanding the meaning is only the beginning.
Does it make sense?
Does it sound like all this is from a God?
Scientists don't find it reasonable but what do they know?
Or should we trust them?
They are the ones who explain to us how the universe and the solar system works.
That explanation doesn't match the sun rising and stopping described here.
Time to reflect a little.

 

[stvdv]

See, most of you ignore the fact that the sun stops every 24 hours in its resting place where Allah decides to give or not permission for the sun to rise again.

Humans "stop every 24h in their resting place (sleeping for ca. 4h-6h in bed)"
But even when asleep, we are not dead, so IMO it's not true that Allah gives permission to "rise again"
If you would say "Allah gives persmission to live" every moment of your life, I would not disagree
Because people drop dead every moment of the day, not according to a 24 hour ritme

You claim that the sun stops every 24 hours in its resting place
That sounds like the sun follows the earth with it's 24h ritme
But even then, the earth does not stop spinning as far as I know
How do you know this to be a fact? Does the sun stop shining?

 

[Raymann]

Humans "stop every 24h in their resting place (sleeping for ca. 4h-6h in bed)"
But even when asleep, we are not dead, so IMO it's not true that Allah gives permission to "rise again"
If you would say "Allah gives persmission to live" every moment of your life, I would not disagree
Because people drop dead every moment of the day, not according to a 24 hour ritme

You claim that the sun stops every 24 hours in its resting place
That sounds like the sun follows the earth with it's 24h ritme
But even then, the earth does not stop spinning as far as I know
How do you know this to be a fact? Does the sun stop shining?

I think you misunderstood my last post.
I didn't make any claims, I just explained a verse from the Quran using the prophet Muhammad's explanation.
I didn't claim the sun stops every 24 hours or that Allah gives permission to the sun to rise every day.
That is what Islam claims.
That is what we interpret by reading the Quran and the hadith which are the Prophet Muhammad's words.
Your questions and doubts are very similar to mine but I cannot answer any of them because I'm not a Muslim.
Even Muslims would have a hard time answering some of those questions.
Here they have an opportunity to do it and clear some of our doubts.

 

[stvdv]

Your questions and doubts are very similar to mine but I cannot answer any of them because I'm not a Muslim

Thank you, now it is more clear to me.

Just some unasked advice, but well meant
IMO:
It is best to never restrict ourselves, because IF God Wills He can grant you "vision", even if you are not a registered Muslim

 

[VoidoftheSun]

So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.
The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

And the throne is a symbol, a metaphor. The Throne is omnipresent, as many verses and Hadith state.

Your interpretation is very flawed and quite puzzling.


Muhammad ibn Isma‘il has narrated from Fadl ibn Shadhan from Hammad ibn ‘Isa from Rabi‘i ibn ‘Abdallah from Fudayl ibn Yasar who has said the following.
“I asked Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (a.s.) about the words of God, the Most Holy, the Most High, “His al-Kursi (the Throne) encompasses the heavens and earth.” (Surah 2:255)
He replied, “O Fudayl everything is the al-Kursi (the Throne), the heavens and earth everything is in al-Kursi.”


Here is an example of how true understanding of the Qur'an is with such kinds of passages, from the progeny of Prophet Muhammad himself:

A group, from Sahl Bin Ziyad, from Muhammad, from his father, from Abu Muhammad has narrated: Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (asws) having said when asked about the Statement of Allah (azwj): “[Surah 91:1] I swear by the sun and its brilliance,”,
he replied: ‘The sun (is a reference to) the Messenger (saww) of God (azwj) by whom (saww) Allah (azwj) Mighty and Majestic Clarified for the people their Deen’.
‘I then asked, ‘(What about) “[Surah 91:2] And the moon when it follows the sun”?
He (asws) replied: ‘That is Amir-ul-Momineen (asws) following the Messenger (saww) of Allah (azwj), and emitted the knowledge (gnosis/marifa/'ilm) by reradiating (like moon reflects the rays to the earth which fall on its surface from the sun)’.
‘I then asked, ‘(What about) “[Surah 91:4] And the night when it draws a veil over it”?’
He (asws) replied: ‘That (is a reference to) the imams of the injustice who tyrannised by the command the Progeny (asws) of the Messenger (saww) and seated themselves upon a set which was for the Progeny (asws) of the Messenger (saww) who (asws) were higher (more deserving) for it than them. They veiled the Deen of God (azwj) by the injustices and the tyranny. So God (azwj) has Referred to their deeds by Saying “[Surah 91:4] And the night when it draws a veil over it”.
‘I then asked, (What about) “[Surah 91:3] By the Day as it shows up (the Sun’s) clarity”?’
He (asws) replied: ‘That (is a reference to) the Imams (asws) from the descendants of Fatima (asws), when asked about the Deen of the Messenger (saww) of God (azwj) so they clarify it for the one who has asked (from them (asws)). So Allah (azwj) has referred it in His (azwj) Statement by Saying “[Surah 91:3] By the Day as it shows up (the Sun’s) clarity”.



And again the specific passage you quoted from Surah Yaseen has already been answered three times from multiple sources.

 

[Raymann]

And the throne is a symbol, a metaphor. The Throne is omnipresent, as many verses and Hadith state.

I never said it wasn't, I take your word for it, I just repeated the hadith accurately.

And again the specific passage you quoted from Surah Yaseen has already been answered three times from multiple sources.

None of those explanations are nearly as good as the following hadith which is DIRECTLY FROM PROPHET MUHAMMAD. (not an Imam or a scholar)

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

Now sir please answer this:
Is this hadith not authentic?
Do you agree with the content of this hadith?
This hadith states that the sun prostrates every night and waits for permission to rise again. Do you agree?
This hadith states that Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again. Do you agree?
This hadith states one day/night Allah will not give permission to the sun to rise again. Do you agree?
That last time will be "resurrection day" (the end of this world).
Do you agree?
This hadith states this is the interpretation of Allah's statement on Quran (36:38), Do you agree?
isn't this specific enough?
Thank you for answering my questions.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

None of those explanations are nearly as good as the following hadith which is DIRECTLY FROM PROPHET MUHAMMAD. (not an Imam or a scholar)

Imam in the Shia context is a divinely guided figure from the progeny of Prophet Muhammad, family, they are the most authoritative sources after Muhammad himself: Imamate

The word Imam has varying meanings depending on what we're talking about. In this case we're not talking about someone that leads prayers or writes scholarly books (although Ja'far al-Sadiq DID form the basis of two of the Sunni Madhhabs and Shia Jafari jurispudence which preceded them).

Here's a wiki article about Imams: Imam - Wikipedia

As you'll see the form of "Imam" you are speaking about is not the type of Imam I am, and which I quoted.
The type I quoted is like a mini-Prophet. There are no Prophets after Muhammad but the Imams that succeeded Muhammad (starting with his son-in-law, Ali Ibn Abi Talib) contain all the divine knowledge passed down. They are far superior to any of the companions (sahaba) you may quote from Sunni sources.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

Now sir please answer this:
Is this hadith not authentic?

Well you're quoting Sahih Bukhari which is of no credibility to me personally. But I don't disagree with the contents of the Hadith quoted, and Abu Dharr is reliable and respected (whether or not the chain of transmission is itself is another matter.....)

Do you agree with the content of this hadith?
This hadith states that the sun prostrates every night and waits for permission to rise again. Do you agree?
This hadith states that Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again. Do you agree?
This hadith states one day/night Allah will not give permission to the sun to rise again. Do you agree?
That last time will be "resurrection day" (the end of this world).
Do you agree?
This hadith states this is the interpretation of Allah's statement on Quran (36:38), Do you agree?
isn't this specific enough?
Thank you for answering my questions.

Yes I do, providing you understand the areas that it uses obvious metaphor.

Firstly it's obvious that it is personifying the sun and moon which is not to be taken literally. The sun and moon "prostrate" like everything else in the Universe.
You'll see other instances like this in the Qur'an such as in the dream of Yusuf (Joseph) where it states:

When Joseph said to his father, ‘Father! I saw eleven planets, and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrating themselves before me.’
He said, ‘My son, do not recount your dream to your brothers, lest they should devise schemes against you. Shaytan is indeed man’s manifest enemy.
(Surah 12:4-5)


This is just one instance, taken in a very symbolic context (the allegory of this dream is further extended to refer to: eleven planets are the Ahlulbayt and the Twelve Imams).
(for further reading this article is great: (Sura 12:99-101) Yusuf's dream - the sun, the moon, and eleven stars)

Further sentiments about things in the universe itself specifically include:

"The seven heavens glorify Him, and the earth [too], and whoever is in them. There is not a thing which doesn't celebrate His praise, but you do not understand their glorification. Indeed He is all-forbearing, all-forgiving."
(Surah 17:44)

And

"Have you not regarded that to Allah prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, the moon, and the stars, the mountains, the trees, and the animals and many of mankind? And for many the punishment has become due. Whomever God humiliates will find no one who may bring him honour. Indeed God does whatever He wishes."
(Surah 22:18)


Basically there is a lot of continuity in these symbolic sentiments, which apply on several levels of meaning in multiple places.

 

[Baroodi]

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
"And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
I thought Muslims would have had an easy explanation for the meaning of this verse.
I was wrong. Nadir Ahmed (a Muslim apologist) who claims there are no scientific errors in the Quran answered my message but when pressed hard he didn't answer and quit the conversation.
Answering-Christianity responded this way to Answering-Islam:
Answering-Islam said; "..it is obvious from the Qur'an (chapter 36:38) that the sun ran then settled down. The verse says: "And the sun runs on into a resting place." "
Answering-Christianity responded, no it's not obvious because this is referring to when the sun stops
Any Muslim has a better answer to this. I just want to know what Allah meant by that in an easy English translation.

Wow, you are refuted dear. What you are trying to invalidate proves how Quran is infallible. What do toy thin about this verse
(Neither the Sun shall catch on the moon, nor the night shall outrun the day. And each is swimming in an orbit) verse 40: Chapter Yaseen.
You can not interpret Arabic at your whims. Not every one is able to get to the deep meaning of Arabic unless he or she got the fundamental abilities to do so. First of all, the verse I quote frankly says the sun and the moon are swimming in a determined orbit that they can not escape off it, entitled to stay there.

 

[Raymann]

Wow, you are refuted dear. What you are trying to invalidate proves how Quran is infallible.

You need to improve your comprehension skills.
I'm not trying to invalidate anything I was just asking for the real meaning of Quran 36 v 38 and so far I got the best possible response from (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421).
You can read my interpretation on comment #21.
Do you disagree with that hadith or meaning?

 

[Raymann]

Do you agree with the content of this hadith?

Yes I do, providing you understand the areas that it uses obvious metaphor.

Do you really think that Allah is using metaphors?
I think you are running around the bush and you're losing credibility by doing so.
Let's go back to the main question.

According to Prophet Muhammad (Sahih Bukhari) without any use of metaphors, the sun stops every night waiting for permission from Allah to rise again. Do you agree?

Do you believe the resting place is the final destination and not part of a daily 24-hour cycle?

Now read the beginning of the hadith again:
Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again.

The question was not.
Do you know where the sun goes at the end of time?
No sir, the question was:
Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?
That means where does the sun go every night at sunset?
There's no metaphor there, there's no secret code language there either.
Plain and simple.
Please answer truthfully from your own mind without quoting and sources.
Thank you.

 

[Raymann]

Well you're quoting Sahih Bukhari which is of no credibility to me personally. But I don't disagree with the contents of the Hadith quoted

Somehow I think you do disagree with some of the contents of the Hadith but no one but you can pinpoint what is it that you don't agree with.

So my questions are:
Do Shias in general accept or deny that Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again every day?
Do you consider this permission a metaphor of some kind?
Do Shias in general accept or deny that the sun prostrates (stop or rest) every night until Allah allows it to rise again?
Do you consider this prostration action a metaphor?

I'm here to learn so please answer those questions.

 

[Muffled]

Nothing particularly controversial.

In Tafsir Ibn Katheer it says about that passage:


﴿ وَٱلشَّمۡسُ تَجۡرِى لِمُسۡتَقَرٍّ۬ لَّهَا‌ۚ ﴾
(And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term. ) He said:

« مُسْتَقَرُّهَا تَحْتَ الْعَرْش »
(Its fixed course is beneath the Throne.)'' (The second view) is that this refers to when the sun's appointed time comes to an end, which will be on the Day of Resurrection, when its fixed course will be abolished, it will come to a halt and it will be rolled up. This world will come to an end, and that will be the end of its appointed time. This is the fixed course of its time. Qatadah said:

﴿ لِمُسۡتَقَرٍّ۬ لَّهَا‌ۚ ﴾
(on its fixed course for a term (appointed).) means, "It has an appointed time and it will not go beyond that.'' It was also said that this means, it keeps moving in its summer orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that, then it moves to its winter orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that. This was narrated from `Abdullah bin `Amr, may Allah be pleased with him. Ibn Mas`ud and Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them, recited this Ayah as: (وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لَامُسْتَقَرَّ لَهَا) (And the sun runs with no fixed course for a term,) meaning that it has no destination and it does not settle in one place, rather it keeps moving night and day, never slowing down or stopping, as in the Ayah:

﴿ وَسَخَّرَ لَكُمُ ٱلشَّمۡسَ وَٱلۡقَمَرَ دَآٮِٕبَيۡنِ‌ۖ ﴾
(And He has made the sun and the moon, both constantly pursuing their courses, to be of service to you) (14:33). which means, they will never slow down or stop, until the Day of Resurrection.

I don't believe I cansee how that derives from the verse. It looks like a false interpretation to me.

 

[Muffled]

And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

IMO:
I am not a Muslim, and many verses in the Koran are "not obvious". Finally a verse that is very simple to understand

The sun will not shine forever, so it is running towards it stopping point
Here the Koran (God) gives a hint that even the sun "dies" like humans "die"

I believe you are mistaking a terminus for an extinction.

 

[Muffled]

I believe any course has a beginning and an end. Of course by observation, it appears the sun is moving but we know that the earth is revolving instead. At any rate the beginning is also the terminal point. The sun begins its course and ends up at the same point.

 

[stvdv]

I believe you are mistaking a terminus for an extinction.

I do not mistake a terminus for an extinction. But I do interpret this Koran verse different than the OP.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

There's no metaphor there, there's no secret code language there either.
Plain and simple.

Do you really want to know where the sun sets?

The spring is a higher level than the river and the river is a higher level than the sea.
The SUN sets in a spring of water.

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." Quran 18:86

Therein will be a bubbling spring:
Therein will be Thrones, raised on high,
Quran 88:12-13

A spring, from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah. Quran 83:28



I tried showing you the language but it seems you do not want to listen.
The moon, star, sun being the three classes. All three classes will prostrate. Plain and simple.


Narrated Sahl bin Sad: The Prophet said, "Verily! 70,000 or 700,000 of my followers will enter Paradise altogether; so that the first and the last amongst them will enter at the same time, and their faces will be glittering like the bright full moon." Book 54 Hadith 470.


And ye shall be sorted out into three classes. Quran 56:7

Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Psalm 148:3

​

 

[Raymann]

I do not mistake a terminus for an extinction. But I do interpret this Koran verse different than the OP.

My interpretation is partially from this Hadith.
How do you interpret that?

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

 

[stvdv]

My interpretation is partially from this Hadith.
How do you interpret that?

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

Previous reply, I answered the OP using

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL Koran 36 verses:
36 Exalted is He who created all pairs - from what the earth grows and from themselves and from that which they do not know.
37 And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are

in darkness.
38 And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
39 And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
40 It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.
​

The "24 hours cycle is not mentioned". I interpreted using only Koran 36:38 (+context)

Spoiler: Koran 3:07 advises about interpretation and about how to (not) follow unclear verses:

Sahih International: It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Personally, I only stick to the Koran and do not use the Hadiths. From the Koran it is said "All is from our Lord". The Hadiths I don't know; maybe there are interpretations of people. I believe that Koran is sufficient by itself, as it is given by God.

But as you asked me, I will share my opinion about this Hadith (I will not debate ... as I stick to "clear" Koran verses)
The Hadith:

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, 1:"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and 2:then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, 3:but it will be ordered to return whence it has come

1: The Sun, has an orb of ca. 1 year, the moon has an orb of ca. 1 month and the Earth spins once around its axis once a day, making sunrises and sunsets a daily feature of life on the planet. So, when the Prophet talks about permission to rise for the Sun, he is not talking about 24 hours. The 24 hours is related to the spinning of the Earth. Permission to rise again is about the ca. 1 year cycle of the Sun.
2: After a certain amount of these 1 year cycles the Sun stops "to rise". Stars are known to die, just like humans or Universe
3: From Advaita I know the same ... when "we die", "we return to where we came from"
IMO:
Reading this Hadith, it seems that it is the same as the Koran 36:38 verse. God shared some Astronomy info with us​

 

[Raymann]

The "24 hours cycle is not mentioned". I interpreted using only Koran 36:38 (+context)

You are clearly misinterpreting the hadith.
The hadith begins with the following question:
"Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
It is talking about the time of sunset.
Sunset happens every 24 hours not every 1 year.
That's why it is not necessary to say "24-hour cycle", we can easily understand that it is talking about a 24-hour cycle.
The response is then related to this 24-hour cycle.
And then the Hadith specifically states that this is the interpretation of Quran 36.38. The Hadith is making it impossible for you to misinterpret verse 36.38.
You see it now?
It