Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[KWED]

Ask them, not me, i only watched muslims fly planes in to buildings and read about beheadings. Apparently done in tje name of Allah.

As @RAYYAN has already pointed out, the Quran can be interpreted in many different ways, but it doesn't take much of an imagination to see how "And if ye gain mastery over the enemy, deal harshly with them as a lesson for those who might follow" could lead to beheading prisoners and posting the videos online.

 

[KWED]

I read that somewhere few years back
But, a simple search on Google, here https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...any-isis-recruits-dont-know-much-about-islam/

Many Muslims don't know much about Islam. Millions have never read the Quran - yet no one claims they are "not true Muslims".

 

[KWED]

I agree, it sounds like ISIS if you read this verse in isolation

Also if you read it in conjunction with all the other verses that promote fighting to establish and spread Islam. It is beyond naive to claim that the Quran does not contain many passages that extol the virtues of fighting (and dying) in Allah's cause.

"Oh!" I hear the cry "But it isn't all about fighting. And it says that if the enemy want peace and submit to Islam, then Muslims can't fight them any more".
1. That just confirms the fighting bits.
2. Muhammad attacked people who wanted peace (read about the conquest of Mecca).

The thing is, moderates have to cherry-pick the Quran and write essays explaining why it often doesn't mean what it says. The extremists just point to the whole thing and say "look what it says, then follow it!".

 

[KWED]

Now let me ask you this;
do people have to reject the Quran for the reason that it has different interpretations because 2.5% interpret it wrong?
2.5% is insignificant

Now let me ask you this; how do you know which is the "wrong interpretation"?

(The killer line is at 50 sec)

 

[KWED]

What's your "beef" ?

Most nations fight wars..
Muslims should only fight "for the sake of the God" ..
..nothing sinister about that.

"Fight until all religion is for Allah"?

If Biden made a speech telling Americans to fight "until all oil is for the United States", you'd throw a wobbler (and righty so!)

 

[KWED]

Here is Yousuf Ali The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
There is no indication that the verse is not connected to previous verses

Another thing, read the verses yourself, it is very clear that
1. The verse is connected to previous verses
2. The whole chapter is talking about people who wanted to harm Muslims during a battle (here)
It is no surprise for Muslims to kill their enemy in a battle field

The preceding verses are talking about the hypocrites (people who pretend to be Muslims but only for their own gain) although he does say to cut their hearts out.
9:11 then turns to the actions of pious believers. They do not seem connected, but even if they are, it goes from telling Muslims that the hypocrites will always be a problem until their hearts are cut out, to telling Muslims that fighting and dying in Allah's cause is a great thing, with a great reward in the afterlife.
So either way, not looking good.

And the "But it is only referring to a specific past event" doesn't work because the Quran is a guide to the best way of life for all mankind, not a patchy history of early 7thC Arabia.

 

[KWED]

I know for a fact that terrorist groups form 1% of the whole Muslim population

So that's a terrorist army of 17 million. Yikes!

(I can't find the source now. Maybe someone who is honest enough post the source)

So you don't "know for a fact", you "recall that it might be".

My point,
do people have to reject the Quran for the reason that it has different interpretations because 1% interpret it wrong?

How do you know that the 99% aren't interpreting it wrong? It's only your opinion, after all.

1% is insignificant

And while there may be only 17 million Muslims who are prepared to take up arms against the west and the kuffar, studies show that many millions more support terrorist acts and even more support the draconian intolerance in Islam. For example, 50% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be a criminal offence, while 9% of Pakistani, 14% of Nigerian and 11% of Malaysian Muslims have a favourable view of ISIS. 16% of Spanish Muslims believe suicide bombings can be justified. 81% of Egyptian muslims who favour Sharia, support stoning for adultery, etc... (Pew Research, IPSOS Mori)

There are not "insignificant" stats.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"Fight until all religion is for Allah"?

That's right !
If oppressors attack our nation, it is our duty to be relentless.

If non-religious people behave like that towards us, then why shouldn't we?
..and we should fight in God's way, NOT to control others for oil etc.

 

[KWED]

I know for a fact that al-Baghdadi had a PhD in islamic studies.

PhD in Islamic studies - must be interpreting it wrong.
Bahai on the internet - must be interpreting it right.

 

[KWED]

That's right !
If oppressors attack our nation, it is our duty to be relentless.

If non-religious people behave like that towards us, then why shouldn't we?

But you are ignoring the vital element. It doesn't say "Fight them until we have repulsed them from our borders" - it says "Fight them until all religion is for Allah".
That is an open-ended command that involves changing people's religion by force. It is a command to ideological military expansionism. A bit like the USSR.

..and we should fight in God's way, NOT to control others for oil etc.

So it's ok to invade and conquer if it is to spread Islam, but not for financial gain.
Seems reasonable.

And you think the Muslim empires never exploited the conquered lands and peoples? The Muslim imperialists never got rich from their expansionism?
You should read a bit more history pal!

 

[KWED]

Politics..
Our hearts are affected by what goes on in the world.

His years studying Islamic law and the Quran seem to have helped shape his role as leader of the Caliphate.
But of course, I'm sure there are people on the internet who are sure he knew nothing about Islam.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But you are ignoring the vital element. It doesn't say "Fight them until we have repulsed them from our borders" - it says "Fight them until all religion is for Allah".
That is an open-ended command that involves changing people's religion by force..

It doesn't mean that.

38 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
40 And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
- Qur'an Al Anfal -

 

[KWED]

Well, this verse answered itself in previous verses 107
Someone gave a verse, I showed the answer on the same page
That means, really, whoever quoted this verse as an evidence doesn't know much

How did verse 107 mitigate the call to fighting and martyrdom for Allah in 111?
They seem unconnected, but if they are connected, 107-110 talk about enemies of Islam and cutting their hearts out. 11 then talks about fighting and dying in Allah;'s cause, in return for a place in paradise.

Now, if some disillusioned young Muslims in the West Bank or wherever reading the Quran and see that passage, think Allah is saying "There are people who pretend to be on our side, but are secretly against us. Islam won't be safe until we kill them, and then Allah will reward us with a place in Jannah, especially if we die" - how is that not a reasonable interpretation of the words in the book?
And if they don't go online and visit any moderate apologists sites and read the long essays explaining why those verses don't actually mean what they seem to mean, what do you think might happen?

 

[KWED]

It doesn't mean that.

But it says that. So how do you know it means something different? And how do you know what that different meaning is if the Quran doesn't say it?

38 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
40 And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
- Qur'an Al Anfal -

Which part of that suggests that if the disbelievers stop fighting, there is to be no more ideological expansionism?
It just says that if they stop, then it's because Allah is on your side. It just makes conquest and expansion easier. Like what happened when Muhammad invaded Mecca. The Quyraysh didn't fight him because of his superior army. So did Muhammad turn round and go back to Medina? No, he marched into Mecca, took over, and suggested that everyone convert to Islam.

 

[ChristineM]

PhD in Islamic studies - must be interpreting it wrong.
Bahai on the internet - must be interpreting it right.

Who is interpreting it wrong?

 

[stevecanuck]

Well, this verse answered itself in previous verses 107
Someone gave a verse, I showed the answer on the same page
That means, really, whoever quoted this verse as an evidence doesn't know much

Verse 9:107 has nothing to do with 9:111. If you think it does, please show the connection.

 

[loverofhumanity]

On what grounds? And how do you know your c=source is accurate?
My sources are varied and partly corroborative. And the historical facts cannot be denied.
You are simply assuming that whatever some bloke said must be true - even though some of it is demonstrably untrue.

The history of the expansion of the Muslim empire was recorded by various sources, some eye-witnesses. There is also archaeological evidence. You don't seem to uxnderdstrand how the study of history works.

Also, Bahaullah was not there so you can't use what he said as an argument, especially as he doesn't cite any supporting evidence.

What are you taking about? There is plenty of evidence to show the Islamic empire expanding massively over the years during and after Muhammad's reign.

Unfortunately for your argument, you cannot even show that a god exists, so you can't claim that Bahaullah was anything to do with that god. The usual circular logic claims made by Bahais are obvious nonsense.

Which is why your position is untenable.


"Burden of proof" dear thing. You are claiming that a god exists, and that Bahaullah was his messenger. Therefore it is your responsibility to show said god exists before you can make any further claims involving it. And you can't do that. You simply resort to circular logic.

lol. Don't need to. I just need to show that my explanation is more likely, or my argument better supported than your god claim. And it clearly is.

But as you cannot provide anything to support your claim, it can be dismissed.

You believe it to be true, but you are unable to show that your belief is true.


I could post a number of passages on how other groups or individuals have a very different view of Islam. Not sure what your point is?

God is the Eye Witness of all human history and is eternal. And He reveals the truth to His Prophets Who pass it onto us. Once it has been determined that someone like Baha’u’llah or Christ or Muhammad were sent by God, then we know that They are All Knowing and that whatever They say is truth and that if human knowledge opposes what a Manifestation states then that human information is inaccurate.

I myself for myself have determined that Personages such as Baha’u’llah, Muhammad, Christ, Moses we’re all sent by God. And I am absolutely certain beyond any doubt whatsoever. Unfortunately I can’t do your searching for you. Whether or not you receive confirmation whether Baha’u’llah or other Prophets are true or not depends upon your sincerity and purity of heart and if God wills it.

I was an atheist against God and religion so I was not searching. I do not consider I was sincere or pure hearted yet I found the truth for this age that billions would give their lives for if only they were aware of just how beautiful and wonderful this all is.

So after 45 years a Baha’i, I am still puzzled why God opened my eyes to this glorious Revelation and I often feel so unworthy, that there are so many worthier than I to be given such a priceless treasure and gift. No words of mine can possibly describe adequately just how wonderful Baha’u’llah is. He teaches us to love all humanity, all religions as truth and to serve all humankind and has brought the blueprint for a world civilisation.

So it’s impossible to provide for you any words that can give you the proof you require as the proof is not in words but in spiritual confirmations. Those confirmations you might or might not get depending upon whether in God’s Eyes you are worthy or not. I cannot convert or convince you of anything. Only God can open your heart and mind to the truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So the one somewhat vague and garbled passage that you base your entire position on could have had its meaning changed in translation.
Whereas it is unlikely that 18 different verses were all mistranslated in the same way to give the same wrong meaning.

Didn’t you understand that the verse indicated that there are both clear and allegorical verses in the Book? That one verse defined the contents of the entire Quran. That’s the Word of God to me so it’s truth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Ok. So which are these mysterious passages, and what do they actually mean?

There are too many to mention.

Baha’u’llah explains some of them in His Book of Certitude.

 

[RAYYAN]

"And those who abuse the Messenger of Allah - for them is a painful punishment." Quran 9:62

You might have quoted this wrong, or you refer to another verse, 9:62 says
"They swear by Allah to you [Muslims] to satisfy you. But Allah and His Messenger are more worthy for them to satisfy, if they should be believers"

"Indeed, those who abuse Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment." Quran 33:57
"“A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.” – Abu Dawud" Abu Dawud

This verse says God will punish them in the hereafter. So, no action is to be taken by Muslims here
Also, I need a source for what Abu Dawud says to see if it is an authentic Hadith and see if there is more to the story

"The only punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is that they should be killed..." Quran 5:33
“Whoever insults Allah the Almighty, or insults one of the Prophets, then kill him." Umar Bin Al-Khattab

The verse doesn't say that. Sorry. the correct verse is
"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"

So, what do you expect Muslims do in this case? what does any country do if someone wages war against the president, and started kelling people, damaging properties, stealing,......etc.?
Also, why are you modifying the verse?

And this is the thing. If someone reads the Quran and sunnah and cones to a conclusion, then they are as justified as anyone else coming to a different conclusion. The accusation of misinterpretation can be levelled at anyone by anyone, not just by the moderates on the extremists.

I agree, less than 1% of Muslims justify terrorism with these verses
the fact that 99.4% of Muslims don't interpret the Quran the wrong way, shows the problem is with those who interpret it wrong

Those who claim that there is nothing in the Quran and sunnah that the likes of ISIS could use to justify their actions have clearly never read the Quran and sunnah.

I claim that, and I read the Quran day in and day out