Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[muhammad_isa]

In the days of the first Muslims, NOBODY attacked the Arabian Peninsula. NO --- BODY.

Oh really!?
You were there, I suppose.

 

[KWED]

I am responding to your point
If there is a command in that verse, show me
You can't show me because there is none

Do you need a hand with those goalposts? They look heavy.

You claimed that there were no passages in the Quran that could be used to justify any of ISIS' actions.
I provided some.
Now you are demanding a clear and unequivocal command?
That is not debating in good faith.

The verse says that there will be a painful punishment for anyone who insults Muhammad. It does not say that that punishment must come from god. It does not say that men must not exact that punishment. Therefore any Muslim painfully punishing someone who insults Muhammad can say "look, it says so in the Quran".

Explicit commands are not necessary for actions to be taken. "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?" being a well-known example.

 

[KWED]

You brought up that other Muslims don't know the Quran
So, I am confused with the point you are trying to make

I have already explained.
It was a response to your claim that some ISIS recruits have little knowledge of Islam. If many Muslims who oppose ISIS also have little knowledge of Islam, then your initial point is irrelevant.
My point merely canceled out your point. It wasn't a "new" point.

 

[KWED]

Wow, wow wow
Are we changing the topic now?
You said there is a command to harm people in 9:61
I am asking you to show me the command

You asked "What are the verses they interpreted to do all these horrible acts?"
I never claimed there was an explicit command. Remember that most of the Quran is not explicit, so it is up to people to interpret it.
That verse explicitly says that those who insult Muhammad will be painfully punished. It makes no mention of who or where the punishment is, so you can't insist that someone painfully punishing them is against the Quran. You can only say that's how you interpret it. Others clearly interpret it differently. And you can't say one is right and another is wrong. It is just opinion again.

We can talk about the other verses next time

I look forward to your responses.

[quore]No, I asked you to give an opinion of 9:61 that says to harm other
You couldn't and you resourced other verses
You can just say "I can't" and earn my respect and friendship[/quote] "Painful punishment" is clearly "harm".
But you have now moved the goalposts to include an explicit command rather than just something that can reasonably be inferred as.
Why can't you just accept that there are passages that can be interpreted to justify ISIS' actions, and earn my respect and friendship?

Big, big mistake on your part
Weak hadith can't be used. This is Islam 101
Dude, if you are going to debate against Islam, learn a bit about it

"Can't be used" for what? They are recorded in hadith collections, so they can be quoted.
And I gave you a sahih hadith that was even worse, so deal with that rather than ignoring it.

See my reply to you regarding Aisha, I never used a hadith

Sorry, I assumed that you would use the usual "If her sister was x old, and her parents joined Islam in y year" argument, which relies on weaker hadith than the hadith it is challenging.
So, quote the hadith you used to come up with that argument. Are they all sahih?

I will explain why the argument you did use fails over there.

 

[KWED]

I am sorry, I should have been specific
Find me a hadith that is authentic in Bukhari or Muslim (The two most authentic books)
Don't quote any random hadith you find

**** me! Those goalposts must be getting dizzy! You asked for sahih hadith. I showed you sahih hadith.
But this is not unusual with Muslim apologists.
"Show me x"
*shows x*
"No! Show me x+"
*shows x+*
"No! Show me x++"
etc

 

[KWED]

Sorry, we are talking about 9:61 where you claim there is a command, I am telling you there is no command in that verse

I never made that claim. It was a new demand you made after your original demand had been fulfilled. It's called "moving the goalposts" and is bad faith debating.

Good. You understand that

It is irrelevant because it was a straw man. No one made that claim.

not really. I know this will open the topic of apostates in Islam

Nothing to do with apostates. The example was a non-Muslim insulting Allah and Muhammad, and spreading corruption by attacking Islam and trying to convince people to apostatise.
Under the terms of the command in 5:33, that person could legitimately be killed.

That is your opinion which means nothing of course

Stoning to death is outlawed under law as a "cruel and unusual punishment". It is not "my opinion".

A Muslims is abide bu Islamic law, take it all or leave it all
You as a non Muslim, these rules don't affect you

So despite all your protestations about Islam not harming people, you are defending things like stoning to death, flogging, dismemberment and crucifixion - simply because they are a apart of Islamic law.
Your position seems somewhat inconsistent.

Sorry, It is you who can not support your claim
You said there is a command in 9:61 to harm others,

No. I said it was a verse that could be used to justify attacking people who insult Muhammad - of which you claimed there were none.
Hopefully you now understand your error here.

 

[stevecanuck]

Oh really!?
You were there, I suppose.

There is zero in the historical record to indicate that anyone invaded the peninsula. Both of their northern neighbors, the Byzantines and Persians, were embroiled in a 4-decades long war with each other over territory, so the last thing they needed was another front.

Again, there is NOTHING in the historical record to indicate an invasion. Not so with Islam's army. They invaded and conquered their way to ownership of a vast empire. You. Have. NOTHING.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You. Have. NOTHING.

I have God.

 

[RAYYAN]

Do you need a hand with those goalposts? They look heavy.

You claimed that there were no passages in the Quran that could be used to justify any of ISIS' actions.
I provided some.
Now you are demanding a clear and unequivocal command?
That is not debating in good faith.

The verse says that there will be a painful punishment for anyone who insults Muhammad. It does not say that that punishment must come from god. It does not say that men must not exact that punishment. Therefore any Muslim painfully punishing someone who insults Muhammad can say "look, it says so in the Quran".

Explicit commands are not necessary for actions to be taken. "Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?" being a well-known example.

Sorry, that is not what I claimed. There are commands in the Quran that are used by ISIS to justify killing, that's why it is happening right!
What I am saying is, these commands don't say that, and for Muslims to kill others, a TINY population of Muslims like ISIS, vast majority of them don't understand the Quran, they are psycho, or don't care about what the Quran says all they want is leadership and power even if it goes against what the Quran says.

Then you provided Quran 9:61 as said, there is no clear indication that punishment is by God, or by Muslims. This is the point of discussion now (I think)
I like to respond to this in three points

- Since there is no command, and a clear indication of who suppose to carry the punishments, The Quran clearly says in Quran 3:7 that We should not follow anything that is not clear in the Quran. Also, the prophet said, leave what is doubtful to what is clear. So, ISIS is clearly wrong in following verses that are not clear.
- I asked you to provide evidence that a scholar said 9:61 is a command to attack others, and you failed to provide one, then you started to change the topic and quote other verses. (I will be happy to debate about other verses if we are done here
- the term "painful punishment" is a common term used in many places in the Quran, nobody interpreted it as a command that needs to be carried out by Muslims. A Muslim immediately understands this is an act of god. for example: 2:10, 2:174, 3:77, 3:177, 3:188, 5;36, 9:79, 16:63, 16:104, 16:117, and others

For example, Quran 16:63
"By Allah, We did certainly send [messengers] to nations before you, but Satan made their deeds attractive to them. And he is the disbelievers' ally today [as well], and they will have a painful punishment"
do you think this is a command to attack others? However, it is the same style as 9:61

 

[RAYYAN]

You asked "What are the verses they interpreted to do all these horrible acts?"
I never claimed there was an explicit command. Remember that most of the Quran is not explicit, so it is up to people to interpret it.
That verse explicitly says that those who insult Muhammad will be painfully punished. It makes no mention of who or where the punishment is, so you can't insist that someone painfully punishing them is against the Quran. You can only say that's how you interpret it. Others clearly interpret it differently. And you can't say one is right and another is wrong. It is just opinion again.

I believe I responded to this already on another post. I look forward to your response

[quore]No, I asked you to give an opinion of 9:61 that says to harm other
You couldn't and you resourced other verses
You can just say "I can't" and earn my respect and friendship

"Painful punishment" is clearly "harm".
But you have now moved the goalposts to include an explicit command rather than just something that can reasonably be inferred as.
Why can't you just accept that there are passages that can be interpreted to justify ISIS' actions, and earn my respect and friendship?[/QUOTE]

Same as above

"Can't be used" for what? They are recorded in hadith collections, so they can be quoted.
And I gave you a sahih hadith that was even worse, so deal with that rather than ignoring it.

A week hadith could be fabricated, that is why it is weak
The only acceptable hadith is an authentic hadith in Bukhari and Muslim collection
Keep looking, I am sure you will find something to debate about there

Sorry, I assumed that you would use the usual "If her sister was x old, and her parents joined Islam in y year" argument, which relies on weaker hadith than the hadith it is challenging.
So, quote the hadith you used to come up with that argument. Are they all sahih?

Not me
You know how I do!

 

[RAYYAN]

**** me! Those goalposts must be getting dizzy! You asked for sahih hadith. I showed you sahih hadith.
But this is not unusual with Muslim apologists.
"Show me x"
*shows x*
"No! Show me x+"
*shows x+*
"No! Show me x++"
etc

It is not something I just made up
from Wikipedia "In the Sunni branch of Islam, the canonical hadith collections are the six books, of which Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim generally have the highest status"
Source

 

[RAYYAN]

I never made that claim. It was a new demand you made after your original demand had been fulfilled. It's called "moving the goalposts" and is bad faith debating.

Fair enough. My apologies

It is irrelevant because it was a straw man. No one made that claim.

That's what digital friends do
Unless, you are saying I am not your friend. That will break my heart

Nothing to do with apostates. The example was a non-Muslim insulting Allah and Muhammad, and spreading corruption by attacking Islam and trying to convince people to apostatise.
Under the terms of the command in 5:33, that person could legitimately be killed.

I asked this question before, In your country, what does the Government do if someone wage war against the president? and spread corruption (like killing, damaging properties, setting fire, ....etc.)
Muhammed PBUH was the president

Stoning to death is outlawed under law as a "cruel and unusual punishment". It is not "my opinion".

But, it is not outlawed in Islam in an Islamic state, for people who live under Islamic law. Who are you to tell them how to live?

So despite all your protestations about Islam not harming people, you are defending things like stoning to death, flogging, dismemberment and crucifixion - simply because they are a apart of Islamic law.
Your position seems somewhat inconsistent.

I never said there is no harm in Islamic law.
For example, if someone kills people gets killed, if someone commits treason gets killed, if someone steals something valuable, his hands get cut off,.......etc.
I don't consider that harming people because for example, the person who kills others forfeits his life and it is an eye for an eye

No. I said it was a verse that could be used to justify attacking people who insult Muhammad - of which you claimed there were none.
Hopefully you now understand your error here.

Fair enough

 

[RAYYAN]

Do you need a hand with those goalposts? They look heavy.

I don't know what this means!

 

[stevecanuck]

I have God.

And not a single fact to back up anything you've said.

 

[stevecanuck]

What I am saying is, these commands don't say that, and for Muslims to kill others

These are commands to commit violence taken from the Qur'an minus context. Most are explicit, but some do require context to understand that violence is the topic at hand, so I've added minimal explanation in square braces not shown in italics. Comments in parentheses and italics are comments added by the original interpreters found in The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran. The purpose of this list is to prove that the Qur'an contains many verses that call for Muslims to kill unbelievers.
- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".
- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".

Continued .......

 

[stevecanuck]

@RAYYAN

- 22:58 "Those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision".
- 49:15 "The believers ... strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah".
- 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them".
- 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure".
- 61:10 through 61:13 "Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives. He will admit you to Gardens. and other things you love, help from God and a nigh victory".
- 48:16 "You shall be called against a people possessed of great might to fight them".
- 48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers".
- 5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified".
- 5:35 - "O ye who believe! ... strive in His way".
- 5:54 "mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way".
- 9;5, "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
- 9:13 "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
- 9:14 "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
- 9:16 "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
- 9:19 "strives in the cause of Allah".
- 9:20 "The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:29 "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians]".
- 9:30 "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
- 9:36 "Fight against the disbelievers".
- 9:38 "What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?".
- 9:39 "If you do not go forth, He will punish you".
- 9:41 "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".
- 9:44 "Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God".
- 9:45 "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].
- 9:52 "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)?".
- 9:73 "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".
- 9:81 "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
- 9:86 "Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger".
- 9:88 "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:93 "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption [from fighting] despite their ability".
- 9:111 "Surely Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain".
- 9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you"

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the Qur'an contains many verses that call for Muslims to kill unbelievers..
...

We all know that..

You imply that the reason for the killing is because they don't believe Muhammad is a messenger of God.
This is not the case.

The reason is due to these unbelievers oppressing the believers.
I could "prove" that by giving a list of verses, but there is not much point.
I know you. You aren't interested in anything other than your own agenda.

 

[RAYYAN]

These are commands to commit violence taken from the Qur'an minus context. Most are explicit, but some do require context to understand that violence is the topic at hand, so I've added minimal explanation in square braces not shown in italics. Comments in parentheses and italics are comments added by the original interpreters found in The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran. The purpose of this list is to prove that the Qur'an contains many verses that call for Muslims to kill unbelievers.
- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".
- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".

Continued .......

Wow, that is a big list. I don't know how to address it LOL

Let me start from the top Verses 2:190 - 2:193
This is talking about people who are fighting Muslims. in 192 it says "And if they cease, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful"
The meaning is to fight them if they fight you, but if they stopped, then stop

2:216 - Fighting is prescribed to everyone and every nation. That is why you have a military in every country, if they are attacked, they fight.
2:218 - It is praise for people who immigrated, believed, or fought without any command to fight
2:224 - There is no fighting mentioned at all
2:264 - There is no fighting mentioned at all
8:12 - That is an order to the angels, not people
8:17 - God is talking about the past on a battlefield
8:39 - is says "...if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do" so, if they stopped fighting you, then stop
8:65 - Is talking about a battlefield. people fight in battles, right?

To save some labor work by me
See this

 

[stevecanuck]

We all know that..

You imply that the reason for the killing is because they don't believe Muhammad is a messenger of God.
This is not the case.

The reason is due to these unbelievers oppressing the believers.

You have yet to explain how all of those conquered territories outside the Arabian Peninsula contained people who were "oppressing the believers".

I could "prove" that by giving a list of verses, but there is not much point.

There are some verses that say that, but they do not define the only reason to fight - just one reason. Verse 9:29 clearly says to fight the people of the book until they submit.

I know you. You aren't interested in anything other than your own agenda.

And finish with an ad hom.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You have yet to explain how all of those conquered territories outside the Arabian Peninsula contained people who were "oppressing the believers".

Too vague..
You could at least name a particular battle.