Qu'ran says "black faces" is a punishment from Allah

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No you don't love Muhammad. Just the other thread you referred to him as a pedophile and in the same breathe you can also say (peace be upon him) while at the same time insult a religious figure. Your confusion and lack of understanding is beyond insulting and I do not understand why the likes of @Kelly of the Phoenix and @stvdv keeps defending you.

IIRC, I asked a question. That's not really a defense. I'm not 100% on board with Pope by any means. Sometimes he makes good points. Sometimes you make good points. Sometimes lots of people I'd rather never really talk to make good points.

By the very fact you made this a race issue and impart that blackness in the Quranic verse was meant as a racist gesture and it wasn't. You were given two explanations regarding the meaning of this verse. Now, you're insinuating this has something to do with "black face" due to the verse in the Qur'an? You know what, I take that back, I'm not offended nor do I think its offensive I think its plain ole stupid to insinuate that this verse implied that.

Why is darkness always associated with evil? People are lighter skinned if they are in a building not getting work done out in the sun like the common people. Wouldn't that make pallor a sign of badness instead?

After all, it is not during the day time you can see the rest of the universe, but at the darkness of night.

 

[KT Shamim]

Qu'ran 3:106 says:

"On the Day [some] faces will turn white and [some] faces will turn black. As for those whose faces turn black, [to them it will be said], "Did you disbelieve after your belief? Then taste the punishment for what you used to reject."

Anyone care to comment on that?

It seems to me like the right and healthy thing to point out a potentially toxic verse like that from a "sacred text."

If the Pope or Donald Trump taught something like that, everyone would accuse them of an extremely offensive and blatantly obvious "racial slur", and rightfully so, but when it comes from Muhammad (peace be upon him), no one seems to care.

It is exalting the favored righteous as having "white faces" and speaking of wicked, condemned, unbelievers as having "black faces".

How could someone not see the problem with this picture?

It seems to me like the right thing to do to point out something so offensive.

I love Muhammad (peace be upon him) and hope he is in heaven. But it is still the right thing to do, to point out his errors in judgement and teachings (rather than enable them by being silent and passive).

We all have errors in judgement, but when over a billion people adhere to one's teachings, those errors have much worse potential to do damage, and should be pointed out.

I do the same thing with the Bible and "Christians".

There's nothing wrong with letting your conscience be your guide!

Thanks for the question. Questions always good. I had to dig stuff up for this answer and learnt something new.
Actually, @Epic Beard Man @adrian009 seemed to have alluded to this. But I'll try to state it more clearly.

Your beef here is not with the Qur'an but with nature. "White" refers to radiant faces and "Black" refers to non-radiant faces. In science and nature objects that radiate all the rainbow's colors are (like the Sun) white. And objects that do not radiate any of the rainbow's are ... wait for it ... black. That is fundamentally how nature works. It is not a reflection of physically white faces being superior to black ones. This is spiritual talk.

People filled with spiritual radiance will be white and those devoid of spiritual radiance will be black. The symbolism reflects nature. So if you dislike that nature is racist then your beef is with the Creator not just the Qur'an.

Muslims hold the Qur'an to a high standard as they believe it is the literal word of God so this longish explanation of mine should be supported by other verses of the Holy Qur'an. So here:

[80:39-42]
On that day some faces will be bright,
Laughing, joyous!
And some faces, on that day, will have dust upon them,
Darkness will cover them.

[75:23-26]
Some faces on that day will be bright,
Looking eagerly towards their Lord;
And some faces on that day will be dismal,
Thinking that a back-breaking calamity is about to befall them.

I'd like to take this opportunity to pray that the faces of all members of religious forums radiate the full spectrum of colors on the day so much so that they are white just like the sun (the sun seems yellow due to the Earth's atmosphere for those that have looked).

Hope that is a satisfactory answer.

You quoted several other verses also that do not satisfy you. A separate post would be better I think.

 

[Shia Islam]

Qu'ran 3:106 says:

"On the Day [some] faces will turn white and [some] faces will turn black. As for those whose faces turn black, [to them it will be said], "Did you disbelieve after your belief? Then taste the punishment for what you used to reject."

Anyone care to comment on that?

It seems to me like the right and healthy thing to point out a potentially toxic verse like that from a "sacred text."

It is not difficult to see that this is figurative expression..

The verse is talking about those who disbelieved after they believed..

They may be black people, white or of any race..

Because of choosing to disbelieve after they believed. In the day of judgment they will see the reality of the decision they have taken..

Indeed they moved from light to the darkness..

So the figurative expression “their faces will turn black" was used..

This expression has nothing to do with racism..

Indeed if you have read the first verse of the first chapter, you will realize why the black slaves were among the first people to accept Islam..

And this was among the reasons why the slave owners of Mecca were very staunch in their animosity towards the prophet..

The verse says:

“O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah, through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.”

 

[Oeste]

Qu'ran 3:106 says:

"On the Day [some] faces will turn white and [some] faces will turn black. As for those whose faces turn black, [to them it will be said], "Did you disbelieve after your belief? Then taste the punishment for what you used to reject."

Anyone care to comment on that?

It seems to me like the right and healthy thing to point out a potentially toxic verse like that from a "sacred text."

I see nothing "toxic" about it. Anyone familiar with religious history would see this as a spiritual rather than racial reference.

If the Pope or Donald Trump taught something like that, everyone would accuse them of an extremely offensive and blatantly obvious "racial slur", and rightfully so, but when it comes from Muhammad (peace be upon him), no one seems to care.

It wouldn't matter with Muhammed because skin color didn't matter with him or anyone living at the time.

Back then, it was your place of origin that mattered...whether you were Greek, Roman, Persian, Egyptian, German, Indian or Ethiopian. That is how you identified yourself...not by skin color.

Europeans didn't even consider themselves "white" or others "black" until the 17th century when the slave trade became racialized. Even then certain Europeans were not considered "white" at all until the mid 20th century.

If Trump or the Pope came out with such a statement we would understand it within our current social and cultural context. We have to be careful to do the same when reading ancient texts as well.

 

[Spiderman]

From your website:

"Please support the site and help a strong conservative voice."

Yes, as if your conservative based website has an unbiased source of truth.....

We shouldn't talk, but I forgot to reply to this post. Just because someone is conservative, doesn't mean they haven't studied history , done the research, and presented reliable estimates. You on the other hand have uttered multiple falsehoods that I can prove to be false, which shows that you are not reliable.

I have many problems, but the difference between you and I, is I apologize when I am wrong. I have done so on RF many times. There is nothing wrong with the OP. I never said it was referring to race. However, we don't know "white faces" was referring to faces illuminated with God's light, as you say. My sponsor, a person I admire more than any one I know in real life, is of African descent. His face becomes radiant with the light of God, but does not turn "white". You are making excuses for errors in the Qu'ran when you don't know those excuses are true. Portraying good people as "white" and bad people as "black" is terrible choice of words, and you should be the first to recognize this and stop defending it.

You also defend a book that repeatedly calls people to bigotry, violence, and hate (and I can and have proven it.) I see you often criticize people for bigotry and ignorance, yet you constantly defend a book that is full of far worse hate and bigotry than any of Donald Trump's stupid remarks. Yes, my friend, you need a reality check!

 

[Spiderman]

It is not difficult to see that this is figurative expression..

The verse is talking about those who disbelieved after they believed..

They may be black people, white or of any race..

Because of choosing to disbelieve after they believed. In the day of judgment they will see the reality of the decision they have taken..

Indeed they moved from light to the darkness..

So the figurative expression “their faces will turn black" was used..

This expression has nothing to do with racism..

Indeed if you have read the first verse of the first chapter, you will realize why the black slaves were among the first people to accept Islam..

And this was among the reasons why the slave owners of Mecca were very staunch in their animosity towards the prophet..

The verse says:

“O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah, through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.”

I knew it wasn't about racism before I ever made the OP.

My point remains!

How do you know it is a figurative expression?

Essentially what you are saying is, the Qu'ran doesn't mean what it says. If it doesn't mean what it says, it is misleading, so what is the point of reading the book?

It says, faces will changes colors. That doesn't sound figurative to me.

People say "White faces" means the faces are illuminated with the light of God.

How do you know that's what it means? As I said, my sponsor is of African descent. I would consider him a man of God with a face and smile that becomes illuminated with the light of God. His face does not become "White".

It is a bad choice of words to say "Faces will change colors" righteous faces will be "white", wicked faces will be "black" no matter what the context.

To say, "the good guys will be white, and the bad guys will be black", is a disrespectful, offensive, terrible choice of words, no matter what the context is!

 

[Spiderman]

I see nothing "toxic" about it. Anyone familiar with religious history would see this as a spiritual rather than racial reference.




It wouldn't matter with Muhammed because skin color didn't matter with him or anyone living at the time.

Back then, it was your place of origin that mattered...whether you were Greek, Roman, Persian, Egyptian, German, Indian or Ethiopian. That is how you identified yourself...not by skin color.

Europeans didn't even consider themselves "white" or others "black" until the 17th century when the slave trade became racialized. Even then certain Europeans were not considered "white" at all until the mid 20th century.

If Trump or the Pope came out with such a statement we would understand it within our current social and cultural context. We have to be careful to do the same when reading ancient texts as well.

I didn't say it was toxic in it's proper context. I said it is "Potentially Toxic".

If someone says, "in the end, people will change colors, the good guys will be white, and the bad guys will be black", which is essentially what the Qu'ran says, how does such a choice of words not have the potential to be misleading and toxic??

 

[Spiderman]

@Shia Islam ,
You are easily my favorite Muslim poster here.
I always pray that Shiites will win all of their battles against the Sunnis, because Shiites seem like a less extreme, less bigoted, persecuted minority on average. Extremist groups like the Saudi Government, Taliban, ISIS, and other extremist groups I despise, are Sunni. Shiites suffer much persecution under them!

So, God bless the Shiites, and in all their struggles with the Sunni, may they emerge victorious!

 

[Spiderman]

It is real typical of ignorant white people to point the finger .

So, I'm an "ignorant white person", yet you defend bigotry, anti-Semitism, hate, and calls to violence against people who cherish different beliefs...I condemn all bigotry, hate, misogyny, injustice, violence, homophobia, intolerance, and murder in the Bible, Koran, or anywhere, and I'm an "Ignorant white person" for doing so. Says, Epic beard man, the guy who defends the hatred, ignorance, and bigotry which he claims to despise. Looks like someone can't handle facts and is in dire need of a reality check!

 

[danieldemol]

Black is not an inherently evil colour in Islam, for example the Mahdi struggles under a black flag and is considered the leader of faithful souls in Islamic eschatology.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

@PopeADope stop tagging me or responding to me....The Muslims that responded are saying exactly the same thing I explained and I explained mine using several verses. I'm officially done conversing with you.

"I pray Shias win every battle against the Sunnis"

You are a sick individual if you pray there is a continuance of fighting between Sunnis and Shias or of any human group. Your bizarreness has sucked all the compassion I had for you. I'm done, it's a wrap...

 

[Shia Islam]

@Shia Islam ,
You are easily my favorite Muslim poster here.
I always pray that Shiites will win all of their battles against the Sunnis, because Shiites seem like a less extreme, less bigoted, persecuted minority on average. Extremist groups like the Saudi Government, Taliban, ISIS, and other extremist groups I despise, are Sunni. Shiites suffer much persecution under them!

So, God bless the Shiites, and in all their struggles with the Sunni, may they emerge victorious!

Thank you for your kind words,

I am sure that Allah will guide all the good souls, of whatever religion they are, to his path. And with this guidance he will grant them paradise..

I remember a great saying of the second man in Shia Islam after the prophet Muhammad.

Those who have some knowledge about the Islamic History, will surely know that before the establishment of the Umayyad Tyrannical Dynasty, which ruled the Muslims for a long time, the one who established this dynasty, who was called Muaawiyah, engaged in a war with Imam Ali, who was also husband of the daughter of Muhammad and his cousin.

Imam Ali was about to defeat this Hypocrite tyrant, I mean Muaawiyyah. However this man, who was of no values turned to a trick, that enabled him to deceive part of the army of Imam Ali. He deceitfully turned into calling for resorting to the Quran to end the war, which caused the army of Imam Ali to split, and that led to the creation of a new sect that was called the Kharijites..

The Kharijites were very religious people, but they lacked the knowledge to understand the plots of Muaawiyah, and his dirty tricks, where Muaawiyah was plotting to ensure that he and his descendants would rule the Muslims, and was aiming at taking revenge for his relatives who were killed in the previous wars between his people and the prophet himself. As Muaawiyah and his father claimed to be Muslims just after the Meccan were defeated by the prophet around one or two years before the death of prophet Muhamamd..

My point here is that Imam Ali tolerated this new group, the Kharijites, and did not engage in a war with them until they started to kill his followers..

What is more important is that before his death he said this important statement:

"

Don’t fight the Kharijites after me (i.e.; after my death), as the one who has searched for the truth but failed to find it, is not like the one who searched for the falsehood and found it

"

So the intention is very important..

We read in the Quran itself the following:

"

And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, Allah is with the doers of good

." Quran (Al Ankaboot-69).

 

[Spiderman]

@PopeADope stop tagging me or responding to me....The Muslims that responded are saying exactly the same thing I explained and I explained mine using several verses. I'm officially done conversing with you.

"I pray Shias win every battle against the Sunnis"

You are a sick individual if you pray there is a continuance of fighting between Sunnis and Shias or of any human group. Your bizarreness has sucked all the compassion I had for you. I'm done, it's a wrap...

Once again, you speak falsehood, so I must respond to you.

Keep in mind that I'm not praying for a "continuance of fighting" between anyone. I mentioned extremist Sunni groups, and how often Shiites are a persecuted, outnumbered minority.

In that context, when Shiites fight back, they are standing up to a bigger, stronger bully. I pray that God help them against a more radical, more corrupt, more bloodthirsty (on average), more intolerant, more bigoted regime.

There is nothing more bizzare about what I prayed for than praying that persecuted minorities win every skirmish against KKK, Neo-Nazis, and racist bigots.

Although Sunnis are not usually racist, their belief that they are superior to everybody, including Shiites, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, and all non-muslims, is in many ways just as ugly and disgusting as the KKK or Neo-Nazis!

If you lose all respect for me, that is okay! I have repeatedly seen you utter falsehoods, false-accusations, and repeatedly you defend bigotry, calls to violence, and hatred, while you condemn people for hatred and bigotry, and quite frankly, the hypocrisy is sickening. And then you call me "sick" for calling you out on such errors.

You have repeatedly defended the ugly behaviors and bigotry that you attack. You utter accusations that I prove to be falsehoods as well. Both are great ways to ensure losing an argument!

See, thing is, I have problems, but I condemn bigotry, violence, hypocrisy, double-standards, cruelty, misogyny, antisemitism, and hate. You defend it, while at the same time attacking it when it comes from right-wingers. That is an extremely hypocritical and unhealthy thing to do in almost any circumstances. The people who don't call you out on those errors are not your friend.

The bigotry and calls to violence in the Qu'ran, is more sick than anything I have ever said or done, and you defend it, while never apologising for your errors, even the ones that can be proven erroneous!

I am sick for condemning, calling out, and despising obvious bigotry and hate. Says the guy who defends hatred and bigotry!

Not healthy!

But you have a good day nonetheless!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Did you really formulate this bulls***?

No, it's in the Qu'ran and in history. The greater tragedy is watching black friends heartily embrace Islam, their great hater and oppressor.

 

[KT Shamim]

No, it's in the Qu'ran and in history. The greater tragedy is watching black friends heartily embrace Islam, their great hater and oppressor.

Erm ... the answer was explained in detail. Radiance from all colors of rainbow combined is white ... it's a natural fact. Black is, naturally, an absorbent color. Nature is racist? Well, okay.

This natural phenomena gives rise to the spiritual symbolism. Don't make no one racist.

"O people, take note that I trample under foot all un-Islamic customs and traditions. All blood feuds are wiped out. As God has made you one brotherhood, so be not divided. An Arab has no superiority over a non Arab, nor a non Arab over an Arab; nor is a white one to be preferred to a dark one, nor a dark one to a white one." - from the last sermon of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw)

 

[Nakosis]

I want to see the beauty in the Qu'ran and Islam. I really do, because i love the humble, peaceful muslims i have met.

I would like to be nice to Allah, be nice to Muslims, and be a friend of Muhammad (peace be upon him)

I hope to meet him some day and be his friend.

However, it seems his errors, actions, and policies are costing humankind dearly.

The actual mind of Muhammad is impossible to know, any more than I can know your mind or you mine. I think if you find any understanding of the Quran it will be a product of your mind, not Muhammad's.

Some will try to provide you a "spiritually conducive meaning". These will all be a product of their mind, not Muhammad's.

Muhammad is not around to explain himself. Personal, I accept there are somethings I can never actually know, like specifically what Muhammad actually meant by this passage which he didn't write but hopefully was accurately recorded.

 

[stvdv]

The actual mind of Muhammad is impossible to know, any more than I can know your mind or you mine. I think if you find any understanding of the Quran it will be a product of your mind, not Muhammad's.

Some will try to provide you a "spiritually conducive meaning". These will all be a product of their mind, not Muhammad's.

Muhammad is not around to explain himself. Personal, I accept there are somethings I can never actually know, like specifically what Muhammad actually meant by this passage which he didn't write but hopefully was accurately recorded.

Agree fully with this. When able to see it this way, we have much more peace of mind [and saves lots of time to prove all things, which is impossible anyway].

 

[BilliardsBall]

Erm ... the answer was explained in detail. Radiance from all colors of rainbow combined is white ... it's a natural fact. Black is, naturally, an absorbent color. Nature is racist? Well, okay.

This natural phenomena gives rise to the spiritual symbolism. Don't make no one racist.

"O people, take note that I trample under foot all un-Islamic customs and traditions. All blood feuds are wiped out. As God has made you one brotherhood, so be not divided. An Arab has no superiority over a non Arab, nor a non Arab over an Arab; nor is a white one to be preferred to a dark one, nor a dark one to a white one." - from the last sermon of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw)

Now, we need to balance the prophet's sermon with his execution of thousands of Jewish men during his lifetime and the seizure of their wives and children.

 

[KT Shamim]

Now, we need to balance the prophet's sermon with his execution of thousands of Jewish men during his lifetime and the seizure of their wives and children.

I suppose you are referring to the execution of the tribe of Banu Qurayza.

The Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza broke a treaty that they wouldn't attack the Muslim army. Once they broke the treaty they were fought back against, overpowered and forced to surrender. They were asked to choose an arbiter to decide their punishment. They DIDN'T choose Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) but chose a Muslim who was a formerly a Jew of an allied tribe (thinking he would show them mercy). Contrary to their expectations the arbiter decided to punish Jews in accordance with their own law as laid out in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.

As for Muhammad (saw) his general amnesty for Meccans after 20 years of persecution and killing should be more than sufficient to show how forgiving he was even when he would have been justified in punishing.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I suppose you are referring to the execution of the tribe of Banu Qurayza.

The Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza broke a treaty that they wouldn't attack the Muslim army. Once they broke the treaty they were fought back against, overpowered and forced to surrender. They were asked to choose an arbiter to decide their punishment. They DIDN'T choose Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) but chose a Muslim who was a formerly a Jew of an allied tribe (thinking he would show them mercy). Contrary to their expectations the arbiter decided to punish Jews in accordance with their own law as laid out in Deuteronomy 20:10-14.

As for Muhammad (saw) his general amnesty for Meccans after 20 years of persecution and killing should be more than sufficient to show how forgiving he was even when he would have been justified in punishing.

No, I'm referring to the fact that the Jews rejected Muhammed as a prophet because he bore none of the biblical marks of prophethood, so 2,000 were killed and their wives taken by force, their children enslaved.

May I ask why you say the PBUH regarding Muhammed? Does he not have the assurance of the blessings of Allah? We Christians believe that having trusted Jesus for salvation, we are blessed, always.

Thanks.