stvdv
Veteran Member
No. It does not say to study carefully.
It says:
As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].
-
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Quran Yes. Hadith No.
- Thread starter EyE_OpEnEr_22
- Start date
It says:
As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].
And @firedragon
I have three translations because I have been debating apologists for years. One common apologist strategy is to claim that I simply read the "wrong" translation.
As for me being a sincere student. Well I am sincere, but probably not in the way you want me to be. I'm sincerely interested in the impact scripture has on modern society. My orientation is to view scripture from the perspective of cognitive science. Cognitive science as an explicit discipline has only been around for 60 or 70 years - more or less. From a cognitive science perspective, I can honestly disregard all of the scholarly apologies for scripture. (And BTW, this applies to ALL scripture, not just the Quran. I have plenty of concerns about other scripture as well.) The reason I can disregard the scholarly arguments is that they are all based on the mind, i.e. "ego". In addition to considering the "mind / ego", cognitive science ALSO factors in how the brain works. Much of the brain's workings occur outside the control of the ego. So the scholar has ZERO control of his brain's reaction to the scripture. The only aspect of control the scholar has is over his ego, and even that control is limited.
When you study the Quran from the perspective of how the brain will react to it, the conclusion that it is a book of war, is clear and parsimonious. Human brains are designed to spot patterns. It's an essential aspect of how we learn everything we learn.
So, we can pull over 500 lines out of the Quran, and come up with a list something like this:
1 - In context A, non-Muslims are liars.
2 - In context B, non-Muslims are lazy.
3 - In context C, Allah has cursed non-Muslims.
4 - In context D, Allah will repeatedly burn off the skins of non-Muslims.
5 - In context E, Muslims should never be friends with non-Muslims.
..
..
..
501 - In context X, never do business with non-Muslims
502 - In context Y, non-Muslims are like animals..
It does NOT matter that scholars might be able to explain away each individual verse with some historical context. All of those scholarly explanations impact only the mind / ego. The brain does NOT care about the scholarly interpretations, it is a pattern making machine. And the pattern is ABUNDANTLY clear.
From the brain's perspective, the Quran instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims.
Now, I understand that most Muslims do not despise non-Muslims. But the Quran makes peaceful relationships between Muslims and non-Muslims harder, not easier. In other words, Muslims love non-Muslims IN SPITE OF the Quran, not because of it.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Bottomline is, Quran doesn't tell you to skip. In the same verse you quoted, you are supposed to believe the whole Quran. Not "skip". So that skipping part was made up. Again, that skipping part was made up.
You are referring to mutashabihat verses. You render it as unspecific. It also means dual. Its not direct.
39:23 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is comparable, but dual (mutashabihat) The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.
it can mean "possessing multiple meanings;" it can also mean "allegorical" (where one single, clearly identifiable element represents another single, clearly identifiable element).
Anyway. I see no point. Peace.
firedragon
Veteran Member
And @firedragon
I have three translations because I have been debating apologists for years. One common apologist strategy is to claim that I simply read the "wrong" translation.
As for me being a sincere student. Well I am sincere, but probably not in the way you want me to be. I'm sincerely interested in the impact scripture has on modern society. My orientation is to view scripture from the perspective of cognitive science. Cognitive science as an explicit discipline has only been around for 60 or 70 years - more or less. From a cognitive science perspective, I can honestly disregard all of the scholarly apologies for scripture. (And BTW, this applies to ALL scripture, not just the Quran. I have plenty of concerns about other scripture as well.) The reason I can disregard the scholarly arguments is that they are all based on the mind, i.e. "ego". In addition to considering the "mind / ego", cognitive science ALSO factors in how the brain works. Much of the brain's workings occur outside the control of the ego. So the scholar has ZERO control of his brain's reaction to the scripture. The only aspect of control the scholar has is over his ego, and even that control is limited.
When you study the Quran from the perspective of how the brain will react to it, the conclusion that it is a book of war, is clear and parsimonious. Human brains are designed to spot patterns. It's an essential aspect of how we learn everything we learn.
So, we can pull over 500 lines out of the Quran, and come up with a list something like this:
1 - In context A, non-Muslims are liars.
2 - In context B, non-Muslims are lazy.
3 - In context C, Allah has cursed non-Muslims.
4 - In context D, Allah will repeatedly burn off the skins of non-Muslims.
5 - In context E, Muslims should never be friends with non-Muslims.
..
..
..
501 - In context X, never do business with non-Muslims
502 - In context Y, non-Muslims are like animals..
It does NOT matter that scholars might be able to explain away each individual verse with some historical context. All of those scholarly explanations impact only the mind / ego. The brain does NOT care about the scholarly interpretations, it is a pattern making machine. And the pattern is ABUNDANTLY clear.
From the brain's perspective, the Quran instructs Muslims to despise non-Muslims.
Now, I understand that most Muslims do not despise non-Muslims. But the Quran makes peaceful relationships between Muslims and non-Muslims harder, not easier. In other words, Muslims love non-Muslims IN SPITE OF the Quran, not because of it.
1. You said you have read the Quran. And you have 3 translations. Can you tell me what an idolator or as you very well know a Mushrik is?
2. And if you wish you can begin a thread with one verse from your so called list that has 500 verses that says "I as a Muslim MUST despise non-muslims as the Quran advises me too". So lets see where that goes.
You seem to be attempting to lure me into a scholarly discussion, which misses my point. I'm happy to grant you ALL the scholarly claims you want to make. That's what the mind cares about. I'm interested in what the brain cares about.
You seem to be attempting to lure me into a scholarly discussion, which misses my point. I'm happy to grant you ALL the scholarly claims you want to make. That's what the mind cares about. I'm interested in what the brain cares about.
Your posts seem primarily interested in insulting 1.8 Billion people.
stvdv
Veteran Member
I did not say skip. I said "skip". Meaning that the Koran did not use this exact word, but the verse clearly advises to use specific verses.
And it even adds "those, in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they follow that of which is unspecific". More clear and obvious it can't be to me.
But clearly you want to study unspecific verses. Just go ahead, but I won't. I rather follow this Koran instruction.
So we disagree on this one. I am perfectly fine with that. You go your way, I go my way. I feel no need to try to convince you, but I also feel no need that you try to convince me. So I drop it.
I agree to disagree on this verse.
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firedragon
Veteran Member
You seem to be attempting to lure me into a scholarly discussion, which misses my point. I'm happy to grant you ALL the scholarly claims you want to make. That's what the mind cares about. I'm interested in what the brain cares about.
Ah. Sorry. Im not interested in rhetoric bro. Peace.
Cognitive science is not rhetoric. And to be honest, religious belief is frequently in conflict with science, so your stance is not surprising.
To me, criticizing scripture is like criticizing smoking. I don't think either is healthy. It's absolutely NOT about insulting people. If you saw someone you love smoking, and you were worried about their health, would you say that bringing up the health issues around smoking was being "insulting" ?
firedragon
Veteran Member
YOU are all about rhetoric.
3:7 "It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."
The point is you have to study it carefully and be humble and understand that you and no one can know the exact meaning of everything in the Qur'an.
To say it tells people to "skip" the allegorical parts is ridiculous. Why would they be in the holy book if they were to be "skipped"? Now you're just giving the interpretation that you find suitable for you. I.e. This verse is a good one for you to consider, if you had the patience.
Your brain...
A lot of Muslims feel something similar regarding non-Muslims. They're afraid the non-Muslims as well as the disobedient (to God) Muslims will go to hell. They're just trying to help you.
Well I mean for my arguments to be persuasive. But I'm also sincere, so I disagree with any negative connotations you might mean when you characterize my arguments as "rhetoric".
You're arguing against established cognitive science here.
Their book slurs non-Muslims over and over and over and over again. The world doesn't need that sort of "help".
No. I'm not. There's barely any science in what you say. It's an extremely weak hypothesis based on uncertain scientific conclusions.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats rhetoric to brother. All rhetoric.
Your arguments are a link to a list on the internet. When asked for an objective discussion, your response is all rhetoric. It has been nothing but rhetoric. You are not interested in anything but rhetoric.
So peace. Have a great day.