Quran Yes. Hadith No.

[icehorse]

Nope. You have made some assumptions without any research because Quran doesn't say what you say. You made that up or you are copying someone else lie. Your link has said a lot of lies and you just dont know it because you haven't done the research.

Your whole perception is based on a hypothesis based not on research but your personal opinion. Your hypothesis is your opinion. Thats your experimenter bias.

Rest is a new irrelevant topic you have brought in.

Nope. I have not lied to you. The fact that you have to resort to your own slurs is telling. You're not debating in good faith, so I'm done.

 

[firedragon]

Nope. I have not lied to you. The fact that you have to resort to your own slurs is telling. You're not debating in good faith, so I'm done.

You didn't lie. But you accepted someone else lie with no analysis.

 

[icehorse]

You didn't lie. But you accepted someone else lie with no analysis.

You are wrong again. I read the Quran. The conclusions of the article were consistent with the notes I took while reading it. I spot checked the list against the Quran, and found the list to be accurate. I did not check all 500+ entries on the list, but if you want to bet me $500 I will, and I'm sure the list is at least 90% accurate. And that's more than sufficient for the purposes of providing data for the brain to pattern match on.

For you to make those accusations is not in good faith.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

You are wrong again. I read the Quran. The conclusions of the article were consistent with the notes I took while reading it. I spot checked the list against the Quran, and found the list to be accurate. I did not check all 500+ entries on the list, but if you want to bet me $500 I will, and I'm sure the list is at least 90% accurate. And that's more than sufficient for the purposes of providing data for the brain to pattern match on.

For you to make those accusations is not in good faith.

Peace.

Well. You are wrong. Absolutely wrong.

For example, munafiqoon does not mean non-muslim. It is muslims and non-muslims. Anyone. You have read it as hypocrite and made one of the most superficial understandings that it means non-muslim. Thats just one of the examples.

So no. Your hypothesis is based on huge misunderstandings and the fact that you have not done the research is evident.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

You are wrong again. I read the Quran. The conclusions of the article were consistent with the notes I took while reading it. I spot checked the list against the Quran, and found the list to be accurate. I did not check all 500+ entries on the list, but if you want to bet me $500 I will, and I'm sure the list is at least 90% accurate. And that's more than sufficient for the purposes of providing data for the brain to pattern match on.

For you to make those accusations is not in good faith.

Peace.

Also, you have read just a one sided list. Thats it. You have not analysed the whole text. Thats the epitome of "experimenters bias".

 

[icehorse]

Well. You are wrong. Absolutely wrong.

For example, munafiqoon does not mean non-muslim. It is muslims and non-muslims. Anyone. You have read it as hypocrite and made one of the most superficial understandings that it means non-muslim. Thats just one of the examples.

So no. Your hypothesis is based on huge misunderstandings and the fact that you have not done the research is evident.

Cheers.

It's understandable that you're caught in mind games. We're all brought up to trust only our minds. It can be unnerving to realize how much your brain does outside of your consciousness.

Let me ask you this: How many different groups of people do you think the Quran criticizes? Can you list them?

 

[firedragon]

It's understandable that you're caught in mind games. We're all brought up to trust only our minds. It can be unnerving to realize how much your brain does outside of your consciousness.

Let me ask you this: How many different groups of people do you think the Quran criticizes? Can you list them?

Well. Anyone can tell others about mind games, this, that and the other. They are useless.

Groups of people in the Quran? That question is evident that you have not analysed the book at all. So maybe you should. Then make all of these claims about groups, slurring and your assumption that all of these so called groups you believe are there are all non-muslims.

Do some research.

 

[firedragon]

It's understandable that you're caught in mind games. We're all brought up to trust only our minds. It can be unnerving to realize how much your brain does outside of your consciousness.

Let me ask you this: How many different groups of people do you think the Quran criticizes? Can you list them?

How about this group? What have you analysed about them?

Salaha, Islaha, Saliheen. The reformer, peacemaker, righteousness as an action.

What about that group? Is that a group in the Quran? Who are they? Have you not analysed? Is not that mentioned in the Quran almost 200 times brother?

How come you left that out? See, you have the experimenters bias. Or, you have followed someone else bias which is again simply, experimenters bias.

 

[icehorse]

Well. Anyone can tell others about mind games, this, that and the other. They are useless.

Groups of people in the Quran? That question is evident that you have not analysed the book at all. So maybe you should. Then make all of these claims about groups, slurring and your assumption that all of these so called groups you believe are there are all non-muslims.

Do some research.

A couple of points here:

1 - If you were debating in good faith, you'd provide a list. It's not a big ask on my part.
2 - Some Islamic scholars would certainly disagree with whatever list you came up with.
3 - We could almost certainly make a bigger category like "those who don't believe in the Allah described in the book" into which all of your groups would fit.
4 - Human brains WILL make such a category.

Do you want to understand the mind / brain division or are you denying it, or do you think it doesn't matter?

 

[icehorse]

How about this group? What have you analysed about them?

Salaha, Islaha, Saliheen. The reformer, peacemaker, righteousness as an action.

What about that group? Is that a group in the Quran? Who are they? Have you not analysed? Is not that mentioned in the Quran almost 200 times brother?

How come you left that out? See, you have the experimenters bias. Or, you have followed someone else bias which is again simply, experimenters bias.

I never said that there weren't other groups in the Quran. I never said that the Quran was limited to slurring non-believers (whatever you want to call them - it doesn't matter to the brain). I'm not attempting to over-simplify the book. I'm talking about this one pattern out of many different elements in the book.

 

[firedragon]

I never said that there weren't other groups in the Quran. I never said that the Quran was limited to slurring non-believers (whatever you want to call them - it doesn't matter to the brain). I'm not attempting to over-simplify the book. I'm talking about this one pattern out of many different elements in the book.

Well. that one pattern that you think exists is flawed because your base is absolutely wrong. I have explained it. You just dont wish to accept or analyse that explanation because you are set with how you have made your own reality out of it.

One simple example again. nafaqa. translated hypocrite generally. You said its "non-muslim" and tried to add that to your 500 number. Thats absolutely wrong. Absolutely. It could be Muslim or non-muslim. General. Anyone. So I repeated that for your benefit.

You are basically wrong. You made your own false reality.

 

[Wasp]

It's understandable that you're caught in mind games. We're all brought up to trust only our minds. It can be unnerving to realize how much your brain does outside of your consciousness.

Let me ask you this: How many different groups of people do you think the Quran criticizes? Can you list them?

The purpose of the Qur'an is not to criticize different groups of people. That's just something non-Muslims tend to take out of it because they don't understand it or even care to.

The Qur'an criticizes Christians. Does it criticize all Christians? No.

It criticizes Jews. Does it criticize all Jews? No.

It criticizes Muslims. Does it criticize all Muslims? No.

It doesn't just criticize. It also praises Jews, Christians and Muslims. It praises people who do good deeds. Why you're so obsessed with the criticism part is probably out of sensitivity to criticism, or for some other reason.

 

[icehorse]

Well. that one pattern that you think exists is flawed because your base is absolutely wrong. I have explained it. You just dont wish to accept or analyse that explanation because you are set with how you have made your own reality out of it.

One simple example again. nafaqa. translated hypocrite generally. You said its "non-muslim" and tried to add that to your 500 number. Thats absolutely wrong. Absolutely. It could be Muslim or non-muslim. General. Anyone. So I repeated that for your benefit.

You are basically wrong. You made your own false reality.

We're at an impasse. Your arguments are based on what the mind thinks. My argument is based on how brains work.

I contend that a person's mind is often in conflict their brain. Further, that the brain knows things and draws conclusions that are sometimes in conflict with what the mind thinks.

All of your arguments are mind-based. We're just at an impasse until you decide to learn something about perceptual learning and implicit knowledge, which are in the domain of the brain. I'm pretty sure you knew nothing of these concepts before this thread started, and I'm pretty sure you haven't studied them in the meantime.

As I said earlier, for the purposes of this debate, I'm happy to grant you that everything you're saying about the Quran from a scholarly context is correct. But the BRAIN doesn't care.

So you are telling me I'm wrong on a topic - cognitive science - about which you know nothing. I'm granting you your scholarly expertise, but you also have to pretend you're an expert in cognitive science. No thanks.

 

[icehorse]

It doesn't just criticize. It also praises Jews, Christians and Muslims. It praises people who do good deeds. Why you're so obsessed with the criticism part is probably out of sensitivity to criticism, or for some other reason.

I'm happy to grant you all of that. We're agreed.

But one aspect of the book is that slurs non-believers over and over and over again. That's a very bad thing.

 

[Wasp]

I'm happy to grant you all of that. We're agreed.

But one aspect of the book is that slurs non-believers over and over and over again. That's a very bad thing.

Or too much Sam Harris taught you a pattern...

 

[firedragon]

A couple of points here:

1 - If you were debating in good faith, you'd provide a list. It's not a big ask on my part.
2 - Some Islamic scholars would certainly disagree with whatever list you came up with.
3 - We could almost certainly make a bigger category like "those who don't believe in the Allah described in the book" into which all of your groups would fit.
4 - Human brains WILL make such a category.

Do you want to understand the mind / brain division or are you denying it, or do you think it doesn't matter?

We're at an impasse. Your arguments are based on what the mind thinks. My argument is based on how brains work.

I contend that a person's mind is often in conflict their brain. Further, that the brain knows things and draws conclusions that are sometimes in conflict with what the mind thinks.

All of your arguments are mind-based. We're just at an impasse until you decide to learn something about perceptual learning and implicit knowledge, which are in the domain of the brain. I'm pretty sure you knew nothing of these concepts before this thread started, and I'm pretty sure you haven't studied them in the meantime.

As I said earlier, for the purposes of this debate, I'm happy to grant you that everything you're saying about the Quran from a scholarly context is correct. But the BRAIN doesn't care.

So you are telling me I'm wrong on a topic - cognitive science - about which you know nothing. I'm granting you your scholarly expertise, but you also have to pretend you're an expert in cognitive science. No thanks.

Your argument is based on a false basis.

So ciao.

 

[icehorse]

Or too much Sam Harris taught you a pattern...

Wait, have YOU read the book? It's as if you're trying to deny that the book says what it clearly says.

 

[icehorse]

Your argument is based on a false basis.

So ciao.

Come back when you've learned some cognitive science

 

[Wasp]

Wait, have YOU read the book? It's as if you're trying to deny that the book says what it clearly says.

From Harris or God?

You seem to be avoiding my question regarding the pattern possibly having something to do with you.

 

[icehorse]

From Harris or God?

You seem to be avoiding my question regarding the pattern possibly having something to do with you.

The pattern has to do with ALL of us, myself included.

Let's try a small experiment. In the first couple of Surah's I we find the following:

1:7 - ... not the way of those who earned your anger..
2:6 - ...those who disbelieve.. will disbelieve..
2:7 - Allah has set a seal in their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes their is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.
2:8 - ... there are some hypocrites who say they believe.. but believe not
2:9 - they think to deceive Allah..
2:10 - In their hearts is a disease.. a painful torment is theirs because they lie
2:12 - they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.
2:13 - ...they are fools, but they know not
2:14 - (again, they are liars)
2:15 - Allah mocks them.. they wander blindly
2:16 - they have purchased error for guidance..
2:17 - Allah took away their light
2:18 - They are deaf, dumb, and blind

And so on, and so on..

Who are the "they" the Quran is referring to? When the Quran criticizes the "they" throughout the book, who is it that's being criticized? Is it one group? Is it five different groups? Is it 10? could you list them? Even a partial list of groups would be okay for this discussion.