Racism, Christianity, U.S history, Christopher Columbus all rolled into one discussion

[Averroes]

This thread was happily inspired by myself and Jungle25's exchange within the discussion of the hatred of Christianity. Not sure if racism is discussed very much on this website since, the very title is called "Religious Forums." As a young African-American man, in my life I have found it ironic that in discussing issues of inter-racial issues I find that many "whites" are very uncomfortable discussing the issues of racism and race. My assumption is that a lot of people feel that speaking on certain issues maybe taboo, or making a remark may be offensive. I find discussing racial issues "healthy" even when people have stereotypes because this gives us an opportunity to dispell those stereotypes.

With respect to the aforementioned discussion within the Hatred Of Christianity discussion I mentioned how Christianity over the ages was used as a tool to enslave Africans, steal land from indigenous people, and used as an imperialistic ideology to be spread through warfare. Now, of course for the average Christian defending their faith many would object and say "well many religions used warfare" but for the sake of this discussion we are discussing Christianity.

(Moving On)

Growing up especially in the academic forum it is my understanding (again, my understanding through my own experiences) that people of African descent rarely get credit for accomplishments, such as discoveries, science, etcetera. Usually, it is met with opposition such as, in the case of jungle when I mentioned that Muslims sailed to the North Americas, the mentioning of aliens being "everywhere" including America. I mean, extraterrestrials? Really? We are talking about terrestrial beings not some beings foreign to our planet! But of course this type of response is to oppose any credit that might take away from giving credit to a European. Even on the discussion of Egypt and the various dynasties and the questioning of who built the pyramids and what they look like.

Upon the mentioning of Black Africans building the pyramids many scholars and skeptics alike disagreed, because they couldn't wrap their head (or chose not to) around the idea that a dark skinned human beings couldn't possibly build something geometrically perfect. After all, during those periods, the Eurocentric Imperialists felt it necessary to discern people of color into intellectual categories. Which is why discoveries of America, scientific facts, or fascinating dynasties are never really credited to the people of the African continent. As a philosophy student in college a professor of mine (mind you he was white) even said that "the Greeks are falsely attributed with the popularity of philosophy, since, the Egyptians before them pondered the same concepts Aristotle and Plato so famously have been for the last hundreds and thousand of years."

Upon discussing the discovering of the Americas in particular, North America, I mentioned that Muslims had sailed to the Americas long before Columbus. Heck, it is even said that the Chinese had been here before Columbus. Then my friend jungle posted an irrelevent link about aliens which had nothing to do with the discovery of a piece of land by terrestrial beings. In my mind because the link I posted mentioned Muslims of African descent perhaps sailed way before Columbus and discovered it before he did, and the mentioning of aliens as a response, I felt this was a means to discredit the efforts of Africans and Black Africans of an accomplishment. This was not me saying that a particular member had racist or prejudice intentions but it is possible to unconsciously have that mentality without even knowing it.

I don't expect my Caucasian friends to understand and in fact I expect opposition but I think unless you live in the shows of the disadvantaged group it is to be expected to not understand.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't expect my Caucasian friends to understand and in fact I expect opposition but I think unless you live in the shows of the disadvantaged group it is to be expected to not understand.

Given that you start by expressing your expectation that many of us won't understand & will oppose you, it doesn't
inspire discussion. To wade in with our motives & views prejudged portends bickering. I suggest a more inviting tone.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Since when have Muslims been to the Americas before Columbus? That's the first I've heard of this.

 

[Barcode]

This thread was happily inspired by myself and Jungle25's exchange within the discussion of the hatred of Christianity. Not sure if racism is discussed very much on this website since, the very title is called "Religious Forums." As a young African-American man, in my life I have found it ironic that in discussing issues of inter-racial issues I find that many "whites" are very uncomfortable discussing the issues of racism and race. My assumption is that a lot of people feel that speaking on certain issues maybe taboo, or making a remark may be offensive. I find discussing racial issues "healthy" even when people have stereotypes because this gives us an opportunity to dispell those stereotypes.

With respect to the aforementioned discussion within the Hatred Of Christianity discussion I mentioned how Christianity over the ages was used as a tool to enslave Africans, steal land from indigenous people, and used as an imperialistic ideology to be spread through warfare. Now, of course for the average Christian defending their faith many would object and say "well many religions used warfare" but for the sake of this discussion we are discussing Christianity.

(Moving On)

Growing up especially in the academic forum it is my understanding (again, my understanding through my own experiences) that people of African descent rarely get credit for accomplishments, such as discoveries, science, etcetera. Usually, it is met with opposition such as, in the case of jungle when I mentioned that Muslims sailed to the North Americas, the mentioning of aliens being "everywhere" including America. I mean, extraterrestrials? Really? We are talking about terrestrial beings not some beings foreign to our planet! But of course this type of response is to oppose any credit that might take away from giving credit to a European. Even on the discussion of Egypt and the various dynasties and the questioning of who built the pyramids and what they look like.

Upon the mentioning of Black Africans building the pyramids many scholars and skeptics alike disagreed, because they couldn't wrap their head (or chose not to) around the idea that a dark skinned human beings couldn't possibly build something geometrically perfect. After all, during those periods, the Eurocentric Imperialists felt it necessary to discern people of color into intellectual categories. Which is why discoveries of America, scientific facts, or fascinating dynasties are never really credited to the people of the African continent. As a philosophy student in college a professor of mine (mind you he was white) even said that "the Greeks are falsely attributed with the popularity of philosophy, since, the Egyptians before them pondered the same concepts Aristotle and Plato so famously have been for the last hundreds and thousand of years."

Upon discussing the discovering of the Americas in particular, North America, I mentioned that Muslims had sailed to the Americas long before Columbus. Heck, it is even said that the Chinese had been here before Columbus. Then my friend jungle posted an irrelevent link about aliens which had nothing to do with the discovery of a piece of land by terrestrial beings. In my mind because the link I posted mentioned Muslims of African descent perhaps sailed way before Columbus and discovered it before he did, and the mentioning of aliens as a response, I felt this was a means to discredit the efforts of Africans and Black Africans of an accomplishment. This was not me saying that a particular member had racist or prejudice intentions but it is possible to unconsciously have that mentality without even knowing it.

I don't expect my Caucasian friends to understand and in fact I expect opposition but I think unless you live in the shows of the disadvantaged group it is to be expected to not understand.

Honestly I wouldn't worry about it. You can't stop people from being racially biased or even unconsciously racially biased. However you have a good point. I think there is a lot of discrediting of African, African-American or any other ethnic group for that matter-accomplishments. I think society is so comfortable with accomplishments of people of European descent that people largely dismiss anything that can be substantially proven wrong.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I acknowledge that black people have been made to feel inferior even by scientists. I agree that efforts need to be made to faithfully portray people of the African continent. Rewriting history and playing the race card every chance you get isn't the way to do it however. There's more than enough conclusive evidence on the continent of Africa to deconstruct those stereotypes. For instance the ancient Nubian civilization boasting pyramids older than Egypt's. The truth about Egypt is that there was a substantial black population even in ancient times including pharoahs whith Nubian names. In addition to that the Moors ruled over white people in Europe for like 600 years.

I notice in the OP you're not nearly as bold about these claims as you were in the thread about Christianity. Now you were just trying to make a case that "perhaps" they visited America. You make it sound like you were presenting this as an interesting little side note and the meer mention of the possibility that Africans arrived in the New World before Europeans, no matter how improbable, prompted whitey to jump on you. Before you were making these bold assertions as if you were preaching an unquestionable truth. An unquestionable truth which included the implication that Europeans were involved in a conspiracy to deny Africans their due credit. After all, as you put it: "It's easy to deny truth". Also, try to have a shred of integrity when making accusations and don't lump my rejection of the claim about Muslims visiting America in the same paragraph as the rejection that civilization began in Africa which is something I wouldn't think of challenging, or of other African accomplishments that reputable scholarship has authenticated. And yes, I do know that the Greeks gave credit to the Egyptians for being their teachers. Yes, that means black people helped shape the philosphy and culture of the Western world.

"In my mind because the link I posted mentioned Muslims of African descent perhaps sailed way before Columbus and discovered it before he did"


I also want to challenge you to be open to the possibility that there are Caucasions here who are not blinded by ignorance and/or hate toward your people. I sense a bit of a judgemental tone in your language as if you think you know what's inside the white folk's hearts.

 

[Barcode]

Given that you start by expressing your expectation that many of us won't understand & will oppose you, it doesn't
inspire discussion. To wade in with our motives & views prejudged portends bickering. I suggest a more inviting tone.

Well I am not speaking for Averroes but I think he may be subliminally implying that anything that is popularized as "white discovery" etc is always met with opposition as if its a conspiracy which of course over time in academia can be quite discouraging hence is probably why he made that remark...I'm just saying but let Averroes make his response.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well I am not speaking for Averroes but I think he may be subliminally implying that anything that is popularized as "white discovery" etc is always met with opposition as if its a conspiracy which of course over time in academia can be quite discouraging hence is probably why he made that remark...I'm just saying but let Averroes make his response.

Academia....the fighting is so vicious cuz the stakes are so low.

 

[Averroes]

Academia....the fighting is so vicious cuz the stakes are so low.

Actually Barcode is right, which is why in debate among scholars of anthropology there was even a question on whether Egypt was apart of Africa. The idea here, is that since the pyramids is a wonder of the world it glorifies Africa which some people refuse to do.

 

[fallingblood]

At least in the United States, history has been written from a white European perspective. That is the primary problem. However, that perspective is slowly changing, to a point. There is a gradual change to seeing the accomplishments of Native Americans, and other minorities, as well as the short comings of white heros.

But the main problem is the white Eurocentric viewpoint in which history has been written in for the last few hundred years. And as with many ideas, it takes a long time to shed that perspective, but we are seeing that happen to a point. I think the best example is Columbus, and the less attention he is receiving.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I've got a question for the OP: One of the things I've noticed in my African studies is that in their task of deconstructing negative stereotypes of blacks, the African scholars are constantly trying to compare themselves to the other races as if they need to measure up to a certain standard. IMO the comparison game is the worst thing any person can do. Be who you are and F what everyone else thinks I say.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

At least in the United States, history has been written from a white European perspective. That is the primary problem. However, that perspective is slowly changing, to a point. There is a gradual change to seeing the accomplishments of Native Americans, and other minorities, as well as the short comings of white heros.

But the main problem is the white Eurocentric viewpoint in which history has been written in for the last few hundred years. And as with many ideas, it takes a long time to shed that perspective, but we are seeing that happen to a point. I think the best example is Columbus, and the less attention he is receiving.

It's only going to be replaced by someone else's perspective. You act as if there's this progression we're making toward an unbiased view of history. That just doesn't exist in this world.

 

[Quagmire]

I was under the impression that serious scholars had given up on the "Columbus discovered the Americas" scenario long ago. Almost 20 years ago in my Native American Studies class my prof. gave a lecture on the likelihood that the Portuguese had beat Columbus to the New World by at least a few decades. And the impression he gave was that this was the current consensus among historians.
DISCOVERO OF NORTH AMERICA

But, I think writing off the popular attachment to the Columbus/discovery idea as a result of racism is a bit naive'. Religion, politics, and economics almost certainly would have played a much more influential role in the propagation of the Columbus/discovery tradition.

If There were Muslims in the New World before Columbus and the evidence has been suppressed or ignored by European historians since the time of Columbus, I would think it would be more a matter of Christendom vs Islam than white vs black.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I've got another question for the OP: Do you think that minorities in America can be manipulative through pulling the race card and accusing people of being racist?

 

[fallingblood]

It's only going to be replaced by someone else's perspective. You act as if there's this progression we're making toward an unbiased view of history. That just doesn't exist in this world.

Not necessarily. One can get a move balanced look at history, and that is what we are starting to see. It is a more objective look at history.

 

[Rakhel]

I was under the impression that serious scholars had given up on the "Columbus discovered the Americas" scenario long ago. Almost 20 years ago in my Native American Studies class my prof. gave a lecture on the likelihood that the Portuguese had beat Columbus to the New World by at least a few decades. And the impression he gave was that this was the current consensus among historians.
DISCOVERO OF NORTH AMERICA

But, I think writing off the popular attachment to the Columbus/discovery idea as a result of racism is a bit naive'. Religion, politics, and economics almost certainly would have played a much more influential role in the propagation of the Columbus/discovery tradition.

If There were Muslims in the New World before Columbus and the evidence has been suppressed or ignored by European historians since the time of Columbus, I would think it would be more a matter of Christendom vs Islam than white vs black.

That's interesting.
I saw a documentary that said what my professor said. That it was the Vikings who discovered America. and another documentary that said it was the Templar Knights.

 

[ChristineES]

I am half Native American and I know who was in America first.

Columbus, as far as I know, never landed in America, but in the West Indies. Columbus went to his grave believing he had gone to India. I have known this for a very long time and so have most of the people I met and spoke to about it (I don't normally discuss history, however). I used to get into debates (during my Navy time) about it, and one fellow said "well, Columbus discovered America for Europe" (You really can't make this stuff up). I heard that Leif Erickson, a Viking, was the first European in America- that was in a college American History course I took a few years when I returned to school on my G. I. Bill.

 

[Katzpur]

Averroes, have you ever read A People's History of the United States? My guess is that you have, but if you haven't, you need to pick up (or download ) a copy.

 

[Averroes]

I was under the impression that serious scholars had given up on the "Columbus discovered the Americas" scenario long ago. Almost 20 years ago in my Native American Studies class my prof. gave a lecture on the likelihood that the Portuguese had beat Columbus to the New World by at least a few decades. And the impression he gave was that this was the current consensus among historians.
DISCOVERO OF NORTH AMERICA

But, I think writing off the popular attachment to the Columbus/discovery idea as a result of racism is a bit naive'. Religion, politics, and economics almost certainly would have played a much more influential role in the propagation of the Columbus/discovery tradition.

If There were Muslims in the New World before Columbus and the evidence has been suppressed or ignored by European historians since the time of Columbus, I would think it would be more a matter of Christendom vs Islam than white vs black.

If they gave up on it why are we still celebrating it? Why is Columbus Day a paid holiday? At least it is at my second job

 

[Averroes]

I acknowledge that black people have been made to feel inferior even by scientists. I agree that efforts need to be made to faithfully portray people of the African continent. Rewriting history and playing the race card every chance you get isn't the way to do it however. There's more than enough conclusive evidence on the continent of Africa to deconstruct those stereotypes. For instance the ancient Nubian civilization boasting pyramids older than Egypt's. The truth about Egypt is that there was a substantial black population even in ancient times including pharoahs whith Nubian names. In addition to that the Moors ruled over white people in Europe for like 600 years.

I notice in the OP you're not nearly as bold about these claims as you were in the thread about Christianity. Now you were just trying to make a case that "perhaps" they visited America. You make it sound like you were presenting this as an interesting little side note and the meer mention of the possibility that Africans arrived in the New World before Europeans, no matter how improbable, prompted whitey to jump on you. Before you were making these bold assertions as if you were preaching an unquestionable truth. An unquestionable truth which included the implication that Europeans were involved in a conspiracy to deny Africans their due credit. After all, as you put it: "It's easy to deny truth". Also, try to have a shred of integrity when making accusations and don't lump my rejection of the claim about Muslims visiting America in the same paragraph as the rejection that civilization began in Africa which is something I wouldn't think of challenging, or of other African accomplishments that reputable scholarship has authenticated. And yes, I do know that the Greeks gave credit to the Egyptians for being their teachers. Yes, that means black people helped shape the philosphy and culture of the Western world.

"In my mind because the link I posted mentioned Muslims of African descent perhaps sailed way before Columbus and discovered it before he did"


I also want to challenge you to be open to the possibility that there are Caucasions here who are not blinded by ignorance and/or hate toward your people. I sense a bit of a judgemental tone in your language as if you think you know what's inside the white folk's hearts.

First off miss me with that sly sarcastic remark of saying "whitey" since we are making assertions on the other please do not speak as if that is how I refer to Caucasians. Second, it is greatly possible that Africans even black Africans sailed to the new world before Columbus. Third, out of respect for me, don't refer to African-Americans as "you people" or in reference to my ethnic group say "my people" that is exactly my point jungle. Certain words or phrases of that caliber can be considered rude and having racist undertones.

As far as Greeks giving acknowledgment to the Egyptians please provide evidence. Inball my yeara studying Greek thought I've never read anything where the Greeks pay respect to Egyptians. I've read Greeks referencing Egyptian thought but paying respect.

 

[Averroes]

At least in the United States, history has been written from a white European perspective. That is the primary problem. However, that perspective is slowly changing, to a point. There is a gradual change to seeing the accomplishments of Native Americans, and other minorities, as well as the short comings of white heros.

But the main problem is the white Eurocentric viewpoint in which history has been written in for the last few hundred years. And as with many ideas, it takes a long time to shed that perspective, but we are seeing that happen to a point. I think the best example is Columbus, and the less attention he is receiving.

That maybe true but the shedding of these histories wont happen for a very very very long time