Racism Of Presidential Candidates

[Stevicus]

I note that some bad laws have been found constitutional.

Sometimes. It seems to depend on whoever is sitting on the Supreme Court.

Saying that a politician is racist or not takes a back seat
to what policies they affect regarding race.

I agree. Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest The title says "Racism of Presidential Candidates" but your original post only mentions one of them. So what about the other candidates?

Trump has gotten much attention, but not Biden.
So I introduced the latter into the mix.

Do you believe that Trump is racist?
And what about Jorgensen?
Which of these do you believe is the least racist, and why?

I don't call any of them "racist".
What I'm trying to advance here is examining policies that
the candidates have advanced, & their effects, particularly
on race. But note that deleterious consequences afflicted
all races.

Labeling too often puts people in a box, & then their every
action is seen that way. It's simplistic & forced.

 

[Stevicus]

Its mind-boggling actually.


Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?

Its like blacks theoretically supporting David Duke because he's no longer a racist on something.

Do they sincerely think a tiger changes its stripes that easily?

It's probably more a matter of political pragmatism - lesser of two evils, which is how it usually is at every election. Some people would rather hold their nose and vote for Biden before they'd even consider the alternative. It's not really that much of a mystery.

It's just like how they criticized feminists who still supported Clinton even though he was such a philanderer, womanizer, adulterer (or even possibly worse). But who else were they going to vote for? Dole? Perot? It's a pretty grim selection, and it's like that at every election.

 

[suncowiam]

Past is prologue.
What each candidate has done illuminates their values,
prejudices, views, & reasoning. They can evolve, but to
judge this also requires examining what they've done
more recently. It boils down to their records in office.

Right. But if someone is going to place equal weight to what Biden did decades ago versus what Trump is doing now, then I would suggest to them that this not all equivalent. Especially when Biden has almost a decade of vice presidency with a record that did not repeat his past. He changed and his record shows it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Biden has a long record as you said. Like any long record it is not flawless. But you cherry picked part of Biden’s record from 26 years ago and ignored, among other things, the eight years he served as VP to our first black president.

Perhaps you're cherry picking portions of his record to ignore?

I don’t ignore what Biden did 26 years ago but I’m voting for him based on what he will do today, and how that compares to the alternative - Donald Trump, an actual racist.

Politicians are prone to saying things for the purpose of
gaining & keeping office, not necessarily for the purpose
of conveying their true thoughts. So there's the question
of whether what he says comports with what he'll do.
A record of willingness to treat people unfairly & harshly
should raise doubts.

So with that context I would add a few facts to consider:

- The 1994 Crime Bill banned assault weapons.

It did not. They were already regulated by earlier legislation.
The Crime Bill only regulated things like magazine size of
manufacture after a particular date for certain non-assault
weapons, some of which looked like assault weapons.
It was rather worthless, given that high capacity magazine
production radically increased to handle future demand.

The Republicans keep trying to keep assault weapons even though 74% of blacks want them banned.

Again, your terminology is inaccurate.

- The 1994 Crime Bill was supported by most of the Congressional Black Caucus at the time and a number of black mayors. We can debate its merits 26 years later but “racist” is an awful stretch. And I think disingenuous, frankly.

Yes, even black politicians will push bad legislation which
harms their own interest. This speaks poorly of their
record too.

- Obama/Biden passed Obamacare which is favored by 75% of blacks today while Trump has repeatedly tried to kill it without a plan to replace it with.

- Obamacare banned insurance discrimination based on pre existing conditions. Blacks in this country suffer disproportionately from a number of health problems and are over represented among under-insured. Black gained insurance coverage disproportionately as a result of Obamacare.

- Obama/Biden responded to two global outbreaks during their term, Ebola and Swine Flu. When there was an Ebola outbreak in West Africa, they sent thousands of troops to help. Trump calls African countries “****hole” countries and withdrew us from the WHO.

- Trump repeatedly lied and continues to defy medical advice in a pandemic that has disproportionately impacted black and brown people. Herman Cain died after getting COVID at a shockingly irresponsible Trump rally in Tulsa.

- Biden became VP to our first black president and their ticket won +90% of the black vote. Today +80% of black voters support Biden over Trump.

- During that time Trump championed birtherism against our first black president

- Trump refuses to acknowledge that institutional racism exists in this country

- Biden met with the families of victims of police brutality to try to heal the country. Trump visited Kenosha and wouldn’t even visit the guys family while he was there.

- Trump refuses to remove Confederate names from US military bases over the objections of his own party and his own military advisors

- Trump violently suppressed peaceful BLM protestors at Lafayette Square who were protesting police brutality against blacks so he could have an absurd photo op with a Bible in an act of sacrilege that shocked even me, an atheist

- The longest serving advisor in Trump’s administration is Stephen Miller, an actual, documented racist who promotes news articles on white supremacist sites like Stormfromt. He has had great influence with Trumps immigration policy.

- Obama/Biden inherited a financial crisis and left office with record low unemployment around 5%. Trump called that number fake but will end his first term with closer to 15% unemployment and a recession that has disproportionately impacted black and brown people.

So ... yeah. Biden’s record is pertinent but let’s not cherry pick. Also, I’m not voting for him based on what he did 26 years ago I’m more focused on what he will do in the next four years ... and comparing that to the alternative, which is clearly racist.

Thanks for playing though.

"Playing"?
Is this more dissing?
I'll pick one from your lengthy list.....
Obama's handling of the financial disaster was poor.
The recovery was unnecessarily slow because of regulations
made during his administration, eg, opposing renegotiation
of troubled Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac loans, requiring
commercial lenders (eg, RBS) to foreclose upon troubled
loans, preventing refinancing by requiring payment of income
tax on forgiven principal & interest.

 

[Revoltingest]

Its mind-boggling actually.


Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?

Its like blacks theoretically supporting David Duke because he's no longer a racist on something.

Do they sincerely think a tiger changes its stripes that easily?

I don't think most voters consider a politician's record.
It's more about emotional impressions from what they say.
Biden is skilled at seeming likeable, fatherly, & sincere.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sometimes. It seems to depend on whoever is sitting on the Supreme Court.

Whether constitutional or not, the laws & policies a politician
have pursued illuminate what they'll do in the future.

I'm seeing much dismissal of this by those who believe
that Biden of today is different from Biden in the past.
They know he's better.
I don't.
But we shall see what he does beginning in January.

I agree. Actions speak louder than words.

Detente!

 

[bobhikes]

On what do you base this.

Personal experience, I am white and live in NJ. I have traveled a lot of the US for work. I love talking to people so have talked to many people in different states. I married a latino naturalized through marriage so I had to also deal with it directly.

 

[Revoltingest]

Right. But if someone is going to place equal weight to what Biden did decades ago versus what Trump is doing now, then I would suggest to them that this not all equivalent. Especially when Biden has almost a decade of vice presidency with a record that did not repeat his past. He changed and his record shows it.

You introduce the word "equal", but I do not.
Weight given to each act would be a function of whether
later acts conflict or comport with the earlier one.

What policies do you see that Biden effected as VP?
I don't think we can automatically credit things done
by Obama to him....either good or bad.

 

[Stevicus]

Whether constitutional or not, the laws & policies a politician
have pursued illuminate what they'll do in the future.

I'm seeing much dismissal of this by those who believe
that Biden of today is different from Biden in the past.
They know he's better.
I don't.
But we shall see what he does beginning in January.

I don't know that he's "better," but he appears to be the lesser of two evils. There might be other things to look at as well. Even if we assume that, based on his past, Biden is as bad as Trump and/or equally racist, we might also look at their management style. Trump strikes me as a loud, boisterous, pushy guy who will inject himself into anything and probably makes life a living hell for his subordinates. At least, that seems to be a common story from people who used to work for him.

So, if he is an evil guy, then he'll be very pushy about getting his way, even if it means going against good advice and common sense.

Biden, on the other hand, strikes me as a go with the flow kind of guy. Maybe he's "sleepy Joe," but that would mean his role would be more like a figurehead, which would probably put Harris or some of his top aides in key positions. So, if Biden was an evil guy, he probably wouldn't be able to do anything to carry out his evil. He'd be like Hengist (aka Jack the Ripper) in the Star Trek episode "Wolf in the Fold":

Jack the Ripper

Detente!

Indeed.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know that he's "better," but he appears to be the lesser of two evils. There might be other things to look at as well. Even if we assume that, based on his past, Biden is as bad as Trump and/or equally racist, we might also look at their management style. Trump strikes me as a loud, boisterous, pushy guy who will inject himself into anything and probably makes life a living hell for his subordinates. At least, that seems to be a common story from people who used to work for him.

So, if he is an evil guy, then he'll be very pushy about getting his way, even if it means going against good advice and common sense.

Biden, on the other hand, strikes me as a go with the flow kind of guy. Maybe he's "sleepy Joe," but that would mean his role would be more like a figurehead, which would probably put Harris or some of his top aides in key positions. So, if Biden was an evil guy, he probably wouldn't be able to do anything to carry out his evil. He'd be like Hengist (aka Jack the Ripper) in the Star Trek episode "Wolf in the Fold":

Jack the Ripper



Indeed.

I observe that most of the time evil consequences are wrought
by people who believe their intentions are good. And their
ultimate goal might be good, but their methods are wrong.

The Crime Bill, for example, had the foreseeable effect of
greatly increasing imprisonment in a system that horribly
abuses prisoners. I don't call Biden "evil" for wanting this,
but I do recognize that he is culpable for the result.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't think most voters consider a politician's record.
It's more about emotional impressions from what they say.
Biden is skilled at seeming likeable, fatherly, & sincere.

Yea. Lol

So was Saddam.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yea. Lol

So was Saddam.

Actually, a friend who lived in & fled
Iraq found him quite hostile & deadly.
Sorry to ruin the humor.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Perhaps you're cherry picking portions of his record to ignore?

Such as?

It did not. They were already regulated by earlier legislation.
The Crime Bill only regulated things like magazine size of
manufacture after a particular date for certain non-assault
weapons, some of which looked like assault weapons.
It was rather worthless, given that high capacity magazine
production radically increased to handle future demand.

Yes, it did. The 1994 Crime Bill included the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. An assault weapons ban is popular among black Americans, and not racist.

Title XI-Firearms, Subtitle A-Assault Weapons, formally known as the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act but commonly known as the Federal Assault Weapons Ban or the Semi-Automatic Firearms Ban, barred the manufacture of 19 specific semi-automatic firearms, classified as "assault weapons", as well as any semi-automatic rifle, pistol, or shotgun capable of accepting a detachable magazine that has two or more features considered characteristic of such weapons. The list of such features included telescoping or folding stocks, pistol grips, flash suppressors, grenade launchers, and bayonet lugs.[6]

This law also banned possession of newly manufactured magazines holding more than ten rounds of ammunition.

The ban took effect September 13, 1994 and expired on September 13, 2004 by a sunset provision. Since the expiration date, there is no federal ban on the subject firearms or magazines capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition.​

Source: Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act - Wikipedia

I'll pick one from your lengthy list.....

Speaking of cherry picking ...

Obama's handling of the financial disaster was poor.
The recovery was unnecessarily slow because of regulations
made during his administration, eg, opposing renegotiation
of troubled Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac loans, requiring
commercial lenders (eg, RBS) to foreclose upon troubled
loans, preventing refinancing by requiring payment of income
tax on forgiven principal & interest.

We can debate whether the recovery was unnecessarily slow during Obama or the catastrophe was unnecessarily precipitous under Trump.

You will of course see it differently given your Republican - sorry, Libertarian - outlook.

What cannot be debated is the fact that Obama/Biden inherited an economic catastrophe and left office with record low unemployment. And conversely, Trump inherited low unemployment and is ending his term with record high unemployment, and this has disproportionately impacted black and brown people.

Interpret these facts how you want - that is not my point. My point is this factual record did not even *show up* in your OP ... where you try to argue that *Biden supporters* are the ones ignoring his record because it “looks worse than Trump’s” ... ... their actual records, recently, is a glaring omission.

This whole approach of trying to say Biden is more racist than Trump just smacks of insecurity and desperation. Which is odd from someone who pretends to not support both candidates equally.

 

[Revoltingest]

Such as?

Prior to this thread, I didn't see much attention
to the issues I broached.

Yes, it did. The 1994 Crime Bill included the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. An assault weapons ban is popular among black Americans, and not racist.

Title XI-Firearms, Subtitle A-Assault Weapons, formally known as the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act but commonly known as the Federal Assault Weapons Ban or the Semi-Automatic Firearms Ban, barred the manufacture of 19 specific semi-automatic firearms, classified as "assault weapons", as well as any semi-automatic rifle, pistol, or shotgun capable of accepting a detachable magazine that has two or more features considered characteristic of such weapons. The list of such features included telescoping or folding stocks, pistol grips, flash suppressors, grenade launchers, and bayonet lugs.[6]

This law also banned possession of newly manufactured magazines holding more than ten rounds of ammunition.

The ban took effect September 13, 1994 and expired on September 13, 2004 by a sunset provision. Since the expiration date, there is no federal ban on the subject firearms or magazines capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition.​

Source: Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act - Wikipedia

Misuse of the term "assault weapon" by government
doesn't change the definition, part of which is having
full auto capability. The Crime Bill didn't address them.
Old joke....
If we call a tail a "leg", how many legs does a dog have?
Four. Because a tail is not a leg.

Speaking of cherry picking ...

We can debate whether the recovery was unnecessarily slow during Obama or the catastrophe was unnecessarily precipitous under Trump.

You will of course see it differently given your Republican - sorry, Libertarian - outlook experience in commercial real estate
investment, management, lending, & borrowing.

Fixed.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Prior to this thread, I didn't see much attention
to the issues I broached.

Okay ... therefore ... I am cherry picking? You know I can’t control what you see, right? I’m not a sorcerer.

Misuse of the term "assault weapon" by government
doesn't change the definition, part of which is having
full auto capability. The Crime Bill didn't address them.

Semantics. The Crime Bill included the Federal [disputed word] Weapons Ban. This ban expired. 74% of blacks support it. You can “whitesplain” to them all you want that they shouldn’t support It. But it is a fact that they do, and that is one of many reasons +80% of black Americans support Biden over Trump, contrary to the OP which appears to imply Biden is racist and blacks who support Biden don’t know what’s best for them.

You of course are free to like or dislike the ban. But this is factually one part of Biden’s record that you ignored in the OP while accusing Biden supporters of ignoring his record ... kind of ironic.

 

[Revoltingest]

Semantics.

Terminology matters because incorrect usage can
lead to misunderstanding gun regulation effects.

Assault weapons are regulated by the 1934 &
1986 laws, not the 1994 Crime bill, which brought
some insignificant restrictions on semi-auto guns,
eg, regulating thumb rests, finger grooves, &
some later magazine sizes. It accomplished
nothing of value regarding lethality & availability.
However it did cause an increase in gun sales.

Tis strange...you accuse me of ignoring something
negative about Biden. I chalk it up to your
lack of familiarity with both guns & the Crime Bill.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Terminology matters because incorrect usage can
lead to misunderstanding gun regulation effects.

Assault weapons are regulated by the 1934 &
1986 laws, not the 1994 Crime bill, which brought
some insignificant restrictions on semi-auto guns,
eg, regulating thumb rests, finger grooves, &
some later magazine sizes. It accomplished
nothing of value regarding lethality & availability.
However it did cause an increase in gun sales.

Tis strange...you accuse me of ignoring something
negative about Biden. I chalk it up to your
lack of familiarity with both guns & the Crime Bill.

The assault weapons ban did not impose “insignificant restrictions”. If that was true the NRA and GOP wouldn’t care - but they do.

It banned new manufacture and sale of magazines with more than 10 rounds. It banned new manufacture and sale of AR-15s and other models.

The Vegas shooter used AR-15s and killed 60 people.

The Orlando shooter used a 30-round magazine SIG MCX and killed over 40 people.

The Sandy Hook shooter killed nearly 30 people including children with an AR-15 style Bushmaster with a 30 round magazine.

The Sutherland Springs shooter used a Ruger AR 556 and killed nearly 30 people. This weapon has a 30-round magazine and began production in 2014.

None of the 15 deadliest mass shootings in the US occurred during the period the ban was in effect, 1994-2004. Semi-automatic rifles of the kind that were in scope of the ban were used in 6 of the 10 deadliest US shootings. High capacity magazines were used in half of mass shootings.

Again you can dispute terms but - tying this back to the OP - this was part of the Crime Bill, and black Americans overwhelmingly support it. And this is one of many reasons they overwhelmingly support Biden.

 

[Quetzal]

Whuh?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just saying that Trump could have helped his case by simply denouncing white supremacy. I also agreed that Biden does not have a squeaky clean record, either.

I hope this helps, I know I mumble sometimes.

 

[metis]

Exactly! Also, as @JustGeorge points out, we should take into account the response people's behavior encourages in others. I don't see any White Supremacist groups cheering Mr. Biden. But the same is not true of Mr. Trump. He's their poster-boy.

Exactly. And let me add that so many of his words and actions verify what you're saying, such as what can be read from this non-partisan source: Racial views of Donald Trump - Wikipedia