Racist Ásatrú?

[EyeofOdin]

But when you read things like 15% of the AZ state prison system is white supremist and Ásatrú/Odinism followers, it is still upsetting.

And I am about as far from the stereotype as you can get... Haha. I look more like an Italian Mobster .

So, what is up with the disparity then between folkish/non-folkish? It seems a lot of the negative stuff ends up along the lines of the Folkish side of the house. I didn't realize people cared that much about their ancestry to preclude another person from a religious path. I am still going to be utilizing the Norse Pantheon in my pursuits, of course, but I am unsure of how far down this path to walk.

The logic behind Folkish Polytheists (there are other ethnic movements besides the Germanic ones) is either that all peoples should only honor religiously their ancestors and the gods are apart of that ancestry because a) all gods and goddesses are ascended, human-born, divine ancestors who were chieftains the tribes and genetically are the forefathers of the ethno-linguistic group in question or b) created then interbred with the particular race in the Lore and all peoples are (as Stephen McNallen says) "metaphorically/literally" the children of their gods, carrying their blood.

This is a very culturally empowering argument but not a very spiritual one, as it IMO devalues the gods as human ancestral spirits as opposed to mighty deities who express themselves through Nature's glory, splendor, power and elegance.

This also, I feel, is a) not historical and b) illogical.

The gods may have been believed to be primal ancestors by some peoples (such as the goths) but they probably didn't believe them to be earth-born. Some cite Tacitus said that the teutons were a people who believed the chieftain god tuisto (mostly assumed to be Tyr) as their ancestor, (by his son and one of his three children, depending on the particular of the three tribes attested as "teutons") who was "deum... terra editum", translated as "a god... having been earth-born" which is semi-correct and misleading. "deus... terra editus" (deus in the nominative, with the adj editus in agreement) terra is probably ablative of means, not place-where, meaning it does not translate also as "a god having been born on the earth", rather "a god having been born by means of the earth". Since "Earth" as a goddess in and of herself is common to be the mother of the gods in Proto-Indo-European lore, and primary gods being human ascended ancestors is not common in Indo-European mythos (although some kings, warriors, shamans and heroes become local, minor deities like Hercules).

That is great info, thank you. Very glad you cleared that up. Looks like I need to look into either The Troth and other universalist side of the house, or possibly find out my actual genetic ancestry and see how much Germanic (if any) that I actually have , if I decide later to pursue Asatru.
Thanks again.

That is great info, thank you. Very glad you cleared that up. Looks like I need to look into either The Troth and other universalist side of the house, or possibly find out my actual genetic ancestry and see how much Germanic (if any) that I actually have , if I decide later to pursue Asatru.
Thanks again.

 

[Poeticus]

Personally speaking, I can see validity in folkish paganism---more or less. It becomes a problem when it gets into eugenics and supremacist positions, both of which are rather recent in terms of historicity. I'll be honest, tribalism has always been there but "supremacist heathenry", if I may be so bold as to characterize such movements as thus, is largely a foreign and recent kid on the block. There are certain pagan practices that have to be looked at in their socio-cultural contexts. For example, Lithuanian folk-religions (and I'm assuming that many here are at least somewhat familiar with Lithuania and its long history of folk-practices). It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if I were to be a Lithuanian folk-religionist if I ain't even Lithuanian, right? However, as a proud Hindu polytheist who often characterizes the self as an Indo-Pagan, I would have no problem with offering respects or salutations to Lithuanian gods and spirits that reside in those lands if I were to visit Lithuania one day (beautiful country, I might add). And that's basically where it ends. I'd do the same thing if I were in Sweden or Norway (both gorgeous countries as well), and numerous other countries---if not every single country on the planet, hehe.

Odinism- A movement ither more or less "folkish" depending on whom you talk to than The Asatru Folk Assembly. Some say "in the eyes of the gods there is no chosen peoples", while others define Odinism as the spiritual veneration of the "Aryan ancestral gods indented to embed the white races in a sacred worldview that supports their tribal feeling" (Nordic Racial Paganism).

Yeah, that's messed up---not to mention a misappropriation of Indo-Iranian socio-religio-cultural lore. We are Aireeyans, hoo rah! Aireeyans! Blah blah blah. First, pronounce it correctly, and then we'll talk---you freakin' "Sieg Heil" degenerates!

 

[Jainarayan]

This is a very culturally empowering argument but not a very spiritual one, as it IMO devalues the gods as human ancestral spirits as opposed to mighty deities who express themselves through Nature's glory, splendor, power and elegance.

This also, I feel, is a) not historical and b) illogical.

One of my reasons for agreeing it's illogical and non-historical is simple: did not tribes and clans adopt, marry and intermingles with others from different tribes and clans? No one lived in a vacuum. So why would a person from one tribe or clan not adopt or be allowed to adopt the deities of another tribe or clan? I've been coming across bits and pieces saying that the Northern Folk were very tolerant of each others' pantheons and very willing to syncretize... make it all one big happy family, the more the merrier. No one has a copyright or registered trademark on any deity.

 

[Jainarayan]

Personally speaking, I can see validity in folkish paganism---more or less. It becomes a problem when it gets into eugenics and supremacist positions, both of which are rather recent in terms of historicity. I'll be honest, tribalism has always been there but "supremacist heathenry", if I may be so bold as to characterize such movements as thus, is largely a foreign and recent kid on the block. There are certain pagan practices that have to be looked at in their socio-cultural contexts. For example, Lithuanian folk-religions (and I'm assuming that many here are at least somewhat familiar with Lithuania and its long history of folk-practices). It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense if I were to be a Lithuanian folk-religionist if I ain't even Lithuanian, right? However, as a proud Hindu polytheist who often characterizes the self as an Indo-Pagan, I would have no problem with offering respects or salutations to Lithuanian gods and spirits that reside in those lands if I were to visit Lithuania one day (beautiful country, I might add). And that's basically where it ends. I'd do the same thing if I were in Sweden or Norway (both gorgeous countries as well), and numerous other countries---if not every single country on the planet, hehe.

Yeah, that's messed up---not to mention a misappropriation of Indo-Iranian socio-religio-cultural lore. We are Aireeyans, hoo rah! Aireeyans! Blah blah blah. First, pronounce it correctly, and then we'll talk---you freakin' "Sieg Heil" degenerates!

There is a fellow at another site who has a syncretic blend of Lithuanian, Hindu and Germanic. Your homework assignment: figure that one out. No really, he does blend them. His patron goddess is Lakshmi/Laima. It came up because I said I still have an affinity for some of the Hindu gods and goddesses. We were able to sort of "map" deities from one IE tradition onto the others without all the "my goddess will scratch your goddess's eyes out". A lot of this is academics, which maybe is the reason it doesn't sit well with people with folkish views... it rocks the foundations of their worlds. You're right, it's a new phenomenon because people are eager to lay claim to something they're re-discovered, especially about their heritage.

The only goddess we had trouble "mapping" to other IE deities was Saraswati. It was pointed out to me that she is representative of a specific geographical feature... the Saraswati River. But I'm sure an argument could be made that in her capacity as goddess of music, learning, speech, arts, literature, she has analogous gods, albeit separate ones: Bragi, the Muses, Apollo (poetry along with Bragi), etc.

Anyway, I'm not sure now what my ultimate point is, and I'm probably not making much (if any) sense because it's early and I'm probably still feeling the after effects of my anesthetic and pain meds. but I think we're all pretty much in agreement that there's no reason to bar anyone from worshiping any deities other than "one's own". Yeah, I think that's it.

 

[Jainarayan]

I suppose this is the sort of thing we are talking about: Holy Nation of Odin (seems to be anything but ). It's enough to make one's blood run cold.

 

[The Hammer]

I suppose this is the sort of thing we are talking about: Holy Nation of Odin (seems to be anything but ). It's enough to make one's blood run cold.

Yup, that would be the folks we are talking about. Sad really. Because regardless of what they say, I am liking the Norse Pantheon thus far (Granted, it's only been a few days )

 

[Jainarayan]

Yup, that would be the folks we are talking about. Sad really. Because regardless of what they say, I am liking the Norse Pantheon thus far (Granted, it's only been a few days )

I would dismiss them completely. They have no copyright or registered trademark on the way. Look to The Troth (the official website) and The Troth - Wikipedia article instead.

 

[The Hammer]

I would dismiss them completely. They have no copyright or registered trademark on the way. Look to The Troth (the official website) and The Troth - Wikipedia article instead.

I checked it out, good stuff. Maybe I will try and make the Trothmoot next year, if it is around the same time. as it was this year. Thanks for the links.

I find it interesting that the Troth does not officially allow participants to Hail Loki at functions, only privately in their own homes.

 

[Jainarayan]

I checked it out, good stuff. Maybe I will try and make the Trothmoot next year, if it is around the same time. as it was this year. Thanks for the links.

I liked what I read briefly; I'm going to look at it closer, for education if nothing else.

I find it interesting that the Troth does not officially allow participants to Hail Loki at functions, only privately in their own homes.

That struck me also.

 

[The Hammer]

I liked what I read briefly; I'm going to look at it closer, for education if nothing else.



That struck me also.

Yeah, it seems good for information/education at least. Let me know what else you find about them.

I think the Loki avoidance is because of this:


"His familial relations attest to this. His father is the giant Fárbauti (“Cruel Striker”), and his mother, Laufey (possibly “Tree”), could be a goddess, a giantess, or something else entirely – the surviving sources are silent on this point. Loki is the father, by the giantess Angrboða (“Anguish-Boding”) of Hel, the goddess of the grave, Jormungand, the great serpent who slays Thor during Ragnarok, and Fenrir, the wolf who bites off one of the hands of Tyr and who kills Odin during Ragnarok – hardly a reputable brood, to say the least. As we’ll see below, Loki demonstrates a complete lack of concern for the well-being of his fellow gods, a trait which could be discerned, in vague outline, merely by considering his offspring."

"In the tales, Loki is portrayed as a scheming coward who cares only for shallow pleasures and self-preservation. He’s by turns playful, malicious, and helpful, but he’s always irreverent and nihilistic."

With that, I would assume that those that take the hard polytheistic stance on the gods, would be a little upset if they were hailing Odin, Thor, or Tyr and then someone turns around and hails Loki. I can see it causing some animosity.

 

[Jainarayan]

With that, I would assume that those that take the hard polytheistic stance on the gods, would be a little upset if they were hailing Odin, Thor, or Tyr and then someone turns around and hails Loki. I can see it causing some animosity.

I can see it that way also. Otoh, I think Loki is a necessary force to bring balance and keep the gods on their toes. In that respect he is worthy of respect, but I see your point above also. It's pretty much for the same reason that, while I have an image of Loki in the house on a wall with other deities, I do not have him enshrined on my altar. It's an area I don't want to introduce metaphysical strife into.

 

[The Hammer]

I can see it that way also. Otoh, I think Loki is a necessary force to bring balance and keep the gods on their toes. In that respect he is worthy of respect, but I see your point above also. It's pretty much for the same reason that, while I have an image of Loki in the house on a wall with other deities, I do not have him enshrined on my altar. It's an area I don't want to introduce metaphysical strife into.

Yup, he is necessary, he wouldn't be there if he wasn't. All religions have their trickster/darker deity.

Exactly, and probably something I would do similarly. Random question: Do you have an altar you use, and a shrine for the Gods? I want to pick up some more little bronze statues, but my altar is small, and won't encompass the whole of the Aesir (won't even hold more then like 4 of them ). As of right now I just have my Odin statue on my altar.

 

[Jainarayan]

Exactly, and probably something I would do similarly. Random question: Do you have an altar you use, and a shrine for the Gods? I want to pick up some more little bronze statues, but my altar is small, and won't encompass the whole of the Aesir (won't even hold more then like 4 of them ). As of right now I just have my Odin statue on my altar.

I use the words shrine and altar interchangeably, but shrine is actually the corner of the room where the altar table is. I have a corner of the dining room (combo living room / dining room) I have a table in, against the wall. On the table near the wall is Thor, centered. It's a replica of the Eyrarland Statue. The Runes around the base read Þórr’s thunder strike and hallowed hold us with Mjölnir’s might.

Flanking the statue are pictures of Tyr and Freyr on the left; Freyja and Balder on the right. I have two candles in front of the statue, a small brass bowl and brass cup for my libations. I will replace these with a real drinking horn and wooden bowl. I also have an incense holder. I have my ritual hammer, a small wooden Viking shield I made, and a small replica of a sword (OK, so it's a toy sword ). I'd like to get a small seax. I also have a bundle of three small oak twigs bound with leather on the altar. The table is is about 24" x 21". It's not big. If I absolutely had to scale it down I would remove the pictures of Tyr, Freyr, Freyja and Balder. I would put them somewhere else.

I have deity pictures in small frames all over the house. On the shrine wall in the center is a framed 8x10 picture of Thor, that is flanked by Odin on the left and Frigga on the right. I also have some pictures of my parents; I'm trying to dig up pictures of more of my family. A shrine doesn't have to be elaborate. I think the basics are some representation of the deity(ies), and a few ritual items. I have the oak twigs because the oak is sacred to Thor, but I could get away without the little weapons representations. I'll have to take a picture of it as it currently is.

 

[The Hammer]

I use the words shrine and altar interchangeably, but shrine is actually the corner of the room where the altar table is. I have a corner of the dining room (combo living room / dining room) I have a table in, against the wall. On the table near the wall is Thor, centered. It's a replica of the Eyrarland Statue. The Runes around the base read Þórr’s thunder strike and hallowed hold us with Mjölnir’s might.

Flanking the statue are pictures of Tyr and Freyr on the left; Freyja and Balder on the right. I have two candles in front of the statue, a small brass bowl and brass cup for my libations. I will replace these with a real drinking horn and wooden bowl. I also have an incense holder. I have my ritual hammer, a small wooden Viking shield I made, and a small replica of a sword (OK, so it's a toy sword ). I'd like to get a small seax. I also have a bundle of three small oak twigs bound with leather on the altar. The table is is about 24" x 21". It's not big. If I absolutely had to scale it down I would remove the pictures of Tyr, Freyr, Freyja and Balder. I would put them somewhere else.

I have deity pictures in small frames all over the house. On the shrine wall in the center is a framed 8x10 picture of Thor, that is flanked by Odin on the left and Frigga on the right. I also have some pictures of my parents; I'm trying to dig up pictures of more of my family. A shrine doesn't have to be elaborate. I think the basics are some representation of the deity(ies), and a few ritual items. I have the oak twigs because the oak is sacred to Thor, but I could get away without the little weapons representations. I'll have to take a picture of it as it currently is.

I am looking at getting more statues, I want to put a Frigga statue above my fireplace to protect my apartment. I am partial to these brass/bronze ones. I know they aren't traditionalist, or realistic in representation, but I like the artwork with them. Like the Bronzed Odin I have. I will post a picture of my altar later (Or I will PM it, not sure). I am looking in to getting a drinking horn as well. I've needed one for a while now anyways .
I also just realized the Freya has a minor association to cats. Hmmm.

 

[Jainarayan]

I am looking at getting more statues, I want to put a Frigga statue above my fireplace to protect my apartment. I am partial to these brass/bronze ones. I know they aren't traditionalist, or realistic in representation, but I like the artwork with them. Like the Bronzed Odin I have. I will post a picture of my altar later (Or I will PM it, not sure). I am looking in to getting a drinking horn as well. I've needed one for a while now anyways .
I also just realized the Freya has a minor association to cats. Hmmm.

I like brass and bronze too. I like brightly painted resin and ceramic too. That's one of the reasons I'm finding it hard to pack away most of my Hindu deities... they're so pretty.

Whatever draws you close to the deities is perfectly fine. Here's a picture of a really abstract altar.

Freyja's cart is drawn by two cats. Not house cats, but the large European forest cats, more closely related to lynxes.

I am considering ordering these items, I don't know if they are visible in the link: Amazon.com They will be my drinking horn and offering bowl. Really, anything is acceptable, but it's nice to follow tradition as much as possible (says the man who has computer printed deities on his altar ).

 

[The Hammer]

I like brass and bronze too. I like brightly painted resin and ceramic too. That's one of the reasons I'm finding it hard to pack away most of my Hindu deities... they're so pretty.

Whatever draws you close to the deities is perfectly fine. Here's a picture of a really abstract altar.

Freyja's cart is drawn by two cats. Not house cats, but the large European forest cats, more closely related to lynxes.

I am considering ordering these items, I don't know if they are visible in the link: Amazon.com They will be my drinking horn and offering bowl. Really, anything is acceptable, but it's nice to follow tradition as much as possible (says the man who has computer printed deities on his altar ).

Definitely an older more archaeological style I think . I like it, but not presently how I would set my altar/shrine up .

And no, the amazon link took me to my own personal wish list . I really want some Norwegian Forest Cats, they are freaking awesome!

I have never offered anything to the Gods... I don't even know what they like. So I don't have an offering bowl.....

 

[Jainarayan]

Definitely an older more archaeological style I think . I like it, but not presently how I would set my altar/shrine up .

And no, the amazon link took me to my own personal wish list . I really want some Norwegian Forest Cats, they are freaking awesome!

I have never offered anything to the Gods... I don't even know what they like. So I don't have an offering bowl.....

OK, here are the items...

Amazon.com: Wooden Rice Miso Soup Bowl #5251: Kitchen & Dining

Amazon.com: Medieval Viking Norwegian Drinking Horn & Stand: Sports & Outdoors

What I've learned about offering is that they like beer, ale, mead, wine, even juice and cider. I've learned from the guys here that you pour the drink into your drinking vessel, make a toast to the gods and powers, drink some, pour some into the bowl for the gods, ancestors, powers, spirits, etc., drink your portion, then offer what's in the bowl to the earth. If it's a community gathering, the group is sprinkled with some of the liquid in the bowl before it's poured out, and everyone passes around the horn to drink from. It's all about community and sharing. For someone who can't or doesn't want to drink alcohol, I think they can just kiss the horn. I say some prayers during this whole thing. It's all of about 5-10 minutes, if that, doing it alone.

 

[The Hammer]

OK, here are the items...

Amazon.com: Wooden Rice Miso Soup Bowl #5251: Kitchen & Dining

Amazon.com: Medieval Viking Norwegian Drinking Horn & Stand: Sports & Outdoors

What I've learned about offering is that they like beer, ale, mead, wine, even juice and cider. I've learned from the guys here that you pour the drink into your drinking vessel, make a toast to the gods and powers, drink some, pour some into the bowl for the gods, ancestors, powers, spirits, etc., drink your portion, then offer what's in the bowl to the earth. If it's a community gathering, the group is sprinkled with some of the liquid in the bowl before it's poured out, and everyone passes around the horn to drink from. It's all about community and sharing. For someone who can't or doesn't want to drink alcohol, I think they can just kiss the horn. I say some prayers during this whole thing. It's all of about 5-10 minutes, if that, doing it alone.

I like both of those, they are very nice pieces. And not to hard on the wallet either .

Yay! Now I have a reference, sweet . Well, I will have to go with either juice or cider, as I do not keep alcohol in my house.

How often are these offerings done? Might be a silly question, but I honestly don't know.

 

[Jainarayan]

How often are these offerings done? Might be a silly question, but I honestly don't know.

I'm ashamed to say that I only do them once or twice a week, or when it hits me. I don't ordinarily drink alcohol, but If I went home every night and popped open a Sam Adams, each of those times would be a toast and an offering. But I light the candles on the altar more frequently, mostly because I light candles all over the house for ambiance. And I say prayers and chants often. I say some prayers in the morning when I put on my hammer pendant.

 

[The Hammer]

I'm ashamed to say that I only do them once or twice a week, or when it hits me. I don't ordinarily drink alcohol, but If I went home every night and popped open a Sam Adams, each of those times would be a toast and an offering. But I light the candles on the altar more frequently, mostly because I light candles all over the house for ambiance. And I say prayers and chants often. I say some prayers in the morning when I put on my hammer pendant.

I have been doing an offering (not ceremonially) of an incense daily, while giving thanks to Odin. I also light my candle once daily, as well, for a few hours at night. I am allergic to alcohol so it is never in my house lol. Hopefully the Gods will appreciate me in that regard .

Did you write your own prayers and chants? Or do you use a format?

I almost feel like I am making this up as I go along, and that just doesn't seem right to me haha.