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Radical Philosophies

averageJOE

zombie
I don't know, but I kinda agree with theif. If you are "targeting" a specific group just to "rattle" them then it does borderline bullying/trolling. And to be honest, the OP isn't going to "rattle" anyone.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...

Lucifer Is Not Satan
I grew up learning from the KJV Bible. Isaiah 14:12 is the only passage in the KJV that uses the word "Lucifer." Unfortunately that passage was a bad translation, done by the 4th century monk Jerome, who was translating from the Greek into Latin for The Latin Vulgate. Modern scholars recognize this error (thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls) and have removed the word Lucifer from the passage entirely (NIV, NASB, ESV, etc.). Besides, the entire chapter is talking about a king of Babylon, not Satan. This leads to my next find...

Christians Take Verses Out Of Context
I can't tell you the number of times I have heard smoeone quote a verse, completely out of context, in order to try and support or illustrate a point they are trying to make. You can't cherry pick a verse and apply it in a "literal" sense. Far too often the Bible speaks in metaphors, or the verse has to be used in the context of the chapter surrounding it. ...

Yes I believe in God.

Indeed. I have debated Isa 14 several times on forums. It is about a human. here is my translation with some of the words corrected. It shows absolutely that it talks about a man. And Babylon is called the Golden City.

Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

Isa 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess themin the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou were made to serve,

Isa 14:4 And thou take up this adage against/concerning the King of Babylon, and say thus, O how has failed the Tyrannizer/Oppressor; failed the Golden City.

(Babylon was called the Golden City.)

Isa 14:5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the scepter of the rulers -

Isa 14:6 who struck the people in rage, striking without remission, beating down the spirit/soul of the suffering masses through persecution without restraint.

Isa 14:7 In relief and peace: the whole nation cries out in triumph.

Isa 14:8 Even the Cypress rejoice, and the cedars of Lebanon, for since being put-down, (you) no longer ascend up to destroy.

Isa 14:9 Sheol/the grave trembles in anticipation of your coming, stirring up the ghosts of the dead, all the leaders of the land rise up from their coverings/shrouds, all the Kings together

Isa 14:10 Altogether speaking, they said, even thee be rubbed-out/struck-down, as it was for us also.

Isa 14:11 Thus descends to Sheol thy pomp/pride, and the noise of thy psalteries; and for thee below, a bed of worms and a coverlet of maggots.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from a great height, O Heylel (Shining One,) son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 for you said in your heart, I will ascend the heights to the very highest, to a prince of God raise up my throne, and sit upon the mount of the appointed/assembly on the border in the North (Temple on Mount Moriah)

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most Lofty/Highest.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol (the grave,) to the sides of the pit.

Isa 14:16 And they that come near to glance at thee, regard thee, the man that made the nations tremble in fear.

Isa 14:17 That made the habitable lands as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the dungeons to set free his prisoners?

Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own family burial vault (sepulcher.)

Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy sepulcher like a descendent detested, shrouded with death, thrust through with a sword, tossed under the stones in a hole/pit; a carcass trodden under foot.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In my studies (search for answers) I have come to some startling conclusions:

Free Will
If God gave us free will, and He can't interfere with our choices no matter what (otherwise it is not free will) then what good is prayer?

Example: a soldier prays for protection to make it home safely after his tour of duty. He gets killed anyway. Why? Someone else made the free will choice to shoot him, and God can't interfere with that. Free will works for both sides of the coin.

The same could be said of anyone who has a hereditary condition. Someone in your family tree made a free will choice to do something (incest, drugs, alcohol, etc.), and that choice echoes for eternity, potentially affecting everyone in the bloodline. Prayer won't help because that would be interfering with the consequences of a free will choice that was previously made.

Bad things happen to good people, not because it is God's will, part of a bigger plan (or any other cop out answer people like to give) but because someone made a choice to do something bad to that person, plain and simple.

[quote partially clipped]

Yes I believe in God.

I thought I would reply to your first point. Free will is not incompatible with prayer. Yes, I believe people are free to choose to do good or evil, and God will not prevent them from making these choices. However, this in no way limits God's ability to save his people or bring punishment to those deserving it. Just one Bible example of many that could be cited: "About that particular time Herod the king applied his hands to mistreating some of those of the congregation. He did away with James the brother of John by the sword. As he saw it was pleasing to the Jews, he went on to arrest Peter also. (As it was, those were days of the unfermented cakes.) And laying hold of him, he put him in prison, turning him over to four shifts of four soldiers each to guard him, as he intended to produce him for the people after the passover. Consequently Peter was being kept in the prison; but prayer to God for him was being carried on intensely by the congregation. (Acts 12:1-5)
Despite Herod's free-will decision to murder Peter, God could, and did, step in to save Peter from what appeared to be certain death.
"Now when Herod was about to produce him, that night Peter was sleeping bound with two chains between two soldiers, and guards before the door were keeping the prison. But, look! Jehovah’s angel stood by, and a light shone in the prison cell. Striking Peter on the side, he roused him, saying: “Rise quickly!” And his chains fell off his hands. The angel said to him: “Gird yourself and bind your sandals on.” He did so. Finally he said to him: “Put your outer garment on and keep following me.” And he went out and kept following him, but he did not know that what was happening through the angel was real. In fact, he supposed he was seeing a vision. Going through the first sentinel guard and the second they got to the iron gate leading into the city, and this opened to them of its own accord. And after they went out they advanced down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him. And Peter, coming to himself, said: “Now I actually know that Jehovah sent his angel forth and delivered me out of Herod’s hand and from all that the people of the Jews were expecting.” (Acts 12:6-11) Thus God's Sovereignty is unaffected by what people decide to do or not do, and God is perfectly capable of dealing with any evil people cause by exercise of free-will.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I thought I would reply to your first point. Free will is not incompatible with prayer. Yes, I believe people are free to choose to do good or evil, and God will not prevent them from making these choices. However, this in no way limits God's ability to save his people or bring punishment to those deserving it. Just one Bible example of many that could be cited: "About that particular time Herod the king applied his hands to mistreating some of those of the congregation. He did away with James the brother of John by the sword. As he saw it was pleasing to the Jews, he went on to arrest Peter also. (As it was, those were days of the unfermented cakes.) And laying hold of him, he put him in prison, turning him over to four shifts of four soldiers each to guard him, as he intended to produce him for the people after the passover. Consequently Peter was being kept in the prison; but prayer to God for him was being carried on intensely by the congregation. (Acts 12:1-5)
Despite Herod's free-will decision to murder Peter, God could, and did, step in to save Peter from what appeared to be certain death.
"Now when Herod was about to produce him, that night Peter was sleeping bound with two chains between two soldiers, and guards before the door were keeping the prison. But, look! Jehovah’s angel stood by, and a light shone in the prison cell. Striking Peter on the side, he roused him, saying: “Rise quickly!” And his chains fell off his hands. The angel said to him: “Gird yourself and bind your sandals on.” He did so. Finally he said to him: “Put your outer garment on and keep following me.” And he went out and kept following him, but he did not know that what was happening through the angel was real. In fact, he supposed he was seeing a vision. Going through the first sentinel guard and the second they got to the iron gate leading into the city, and this opened to them of its own accord. And after they went out they advanced down one street, and immediately the angel departed from him. And Peter, coming to himself, said: “Now I actually know that Jehovah sent his angel forth and delivered me out of Herod’s hand and from all that the people of the Jews were expecting.” (Acts 12:6-11) Thus God's Sovereignty is unaffected by what people decide to do or not do, and God is perfectly capable of dealing with any evil people cause by exercise of free-will.

Personally I don't believe those "angel" visit.

However -to your post.

Then why doesn't YHVH save all that pray to him for help?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I thought I would reply to your first point. Free will is not incompatible with prayer. Yes, I believe people are free to choose to do good or evil, and God will not prevent them from making these choices. However, this in no way limits God's ability to save his people or bring punishment to those deserving it. .
I can't believe this is happening, but I agree with you! :D

I don't see how God choosing to exercise his own free will would make our free will null-and-void. I mean, is a doctor destroying free-will by saving a person who got shot by someone exercising his free-will? If the answer is no, then the answer is the same if you switch out God for the doctor.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
God gave us free will, He is certainly capable of interfering but He won't.
/snip/
Prayer develops the soul/mind connection. They are two separate pathways. The soul path mostly works one way, from you out to the soul and then to God. This is how God experiences His universe. The mind pathway works entirely one way, to you.
/snip/
Still, a soul can be destroyed by a type of energy best described as fire.
Just a couple snippets from your post, with particular attention to the things I bolded.

I was just struck by the things you believe that you know. I mean, that's some pretty specific stuff about things like the mind of God and the sort of fire that's in hell. Definitely swinging for the fences, aren't we?
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
In my studies (search for answers) I have come to some startling conclusions:

Don't worry, it happens to us all.

Free Will
If God gave us free will, and He can't interfere with our choices no matter what (otherwise it is not free will) then what good is prayer?

I'm not sure why you think interference by god negates free will, nor do I understand how any of this negates the 'good' of prayer. In many cases people simply use prayer to offer thanks. Do you insist that this is a useless operation? If so, why?

Example: a soldier prays for protection to make it home safely after his tour of duty. He gets killed anyway. Why? Someone else made the free will choice to shoot him, and God can't interfere with that. Free will works for both sides of the coin.

That's very interesting that free will is not negated by the interference of another person, but only by the interference of god. I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. Your ability to determine what does or does not happen is removed in either case. I don't see a difference.

The same could be said of anyone who has a hereditary condition. Someone in your family tree made a free will choice to do something (incest, drugs, alcohol, etc.), and that choice echoes for eternity, potentially affecting everyone in the bloodline. Prayer won't help because that would be interfering with the consequences of a free will choice that was previously made.

Again, if a human makes a choice that negates your choice, why is that any different than god interfering?

Bad things happen to good people, not because it is God's will, part of a bigger plan (or any other cop out answer people like to give) but because someone made a choice to do something bad to that person, plain and simple.

Are you familiar with the concept of omnipotence?

The god in the Bible is omnipotent which means that ultimately, every single thing that ever happens for any reason is actually happening because the omnipotent being decided that it should.

Further, since omnipotence implies omniscience and the Bible god is most definitely omniscient as well, it would mean that before god ever did anything at all with his boundless might, he knew in exact detail every single thing that would follow because of his actions. Therefore, every choice you made was made by god before the universe was even created.

Additionally, omnipotence also implies omnipresence and the Bible god is also this. Which typically means that god is not subject to time in any way. Past, present and future all exist simultaneously to god. That means, that when he created the universe he created the start and the end and everything in the middle all at once. The choices you make today where designed in the same instant that the choices you made yesterday and the choices you will make tomorrow were designed.

In other words, god's will is the only will if there is such a thing as omnipotence (Bible god).

The Bible Is Not Literal
I do not take the Bible literally on many accounts. No where does it state that it is a history textbook, have all the answers, or the need to explain miracles/supernatural events. If anything, it causes more confusion than it does anything else.

Which accounts do you continue to take literally, and why?

I do find that it contradicts itself in numerous places, errors are made in translations, and what humankind could not explain back then, science can now explain on most accounts. Our knowledge of physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy etc. separates our interpretations of various events versus what the ancients guessed at.

What contradictions have you discovered, and how do you choose which side of the contradiction you agree with?

Lucifer Is Not Satan
I grew up learning from the KJV Bible. Isaiah 14:12 is the only passage in the KJV that uses the word "Lucifer." Unfortunately that passage was a bad translation, done by the 4th century monk Jerome, who was translating from the Greek into Latin for The Latin Vulgate. Modern scholars recognize this error (thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls) and have removed the word Lucifer from the passage entirely (NIV, NASB, ESV, etc.). Besides, the entire chapter is talking about a king of Babylon, not Satan. This leads to my next find...

I remember being very upset when King Theoden of the Rohan referred to Gandalf as 'Stormcrow'. Clearly that isn't even a real compound word and should have a hyphen, and the capitalization is just ridiculous since that's obviously not Gandalf's real name. It's an outrage.

Christians Take Verses Out Of Context
I can't tell you the number of times I have heard smoeone quote a verse, completely out of context, in order to try and support or illustrate a point they are trying to make. You can't cherry pick a verse and apply it in a "literal" sense. Far too often the Bible speaks in metaphors, or the verse has to be used in the context of the chapter surrounding it.

This behavior is not limited to Christianity nor is it limited to the Bible. Look what they do on the news to the things that politicians say.

Souls Can't Burn In Hell
The skin is an organ, complete with nerve endings that send a signal to the brain that something hurts. Your body stays behind when you die (which means your nerve endings and your brain that registers pain, stay behind) so there is no physical possibility for "burning in hell."

That's an interesting viewpoint. Can you explain how you would see, hear, smell, touch or taste anything in Heaven? Or are those senses similarly removed due to the body's involvement with those particular senses?

The hell, fire and brimstone sermons started long ago to scare the wits out of the congregation, so they would follow the church's lead. People know that being burned alive is a horrific, painful way to die. What better way to control the masses than to appeal to their sense of eternal preservation.

While this may very well be true, it has no bearing on the previous point. You can offer this as a motivation to skew the facts relating to Hell, but you can't offer it as direct evidence for the actual skewing. It is equally as easy to say that you are right now currently engaged in human-controlling behavior by attempting to debunk the idea of a fiery, torturous hell. What better way to control the masses than to appeal to their sense of eternal preservation, after all (there are lots of better ways, btw).

The Church Likes Money And Power
There was a very big reason why the Roman Catholic Church did not want its Latin Vulgate translated into English: the clergy wanted to tell people what to worship, how to worship, how much to "donate" to the church, and have no system of checks and balances in doing so. After several people were burned for standing up to the RCC, the translations happened anyway (go Henry VIII!), and people woke up to the fact that they had been duped for centuries.

Everyone likes money and power as far as I can tell. Also, 'the people' didn't wake up to being duped until we began overthrowing dictatorships and installing popular governments. The church was competing with amoral, self-serving dictators for control of humanity when it rose to power. Seems like a wash to me. :shrug:

There's many, many more points like these that I could make, but I'll stop there for now.

I'm game if you are...

Yes I believe in God.

Me too! Probably not the same guy, though. ;)
 
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