The Black Whirlwind
Well-Known Member
does anyone know about this guy? my aunt follows his cult.
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Rama (aka Frederick Lenz)
- Thread starter The Black Whirlwind
- Start date
kreeden
Virus of the Mind
Hadn't heard of him untill now . But the use of the name of Vishnu's last incarnation kinda caught my attention . So I did a quick search . You likely know that he is dead ? But his site is going strong .. http://www.fredericklenz.com/
And to balance it out , these guys always have interesting things to say .. http://skepdic.com/rama.html .
For this post , I'll add a sig .
______________________________________
The truth is usually somewhere in the middle ...
And to balance it out , these guys always have interesting things to say .. http://skepdic.com/rama.html .
For this post , I'll add a sig .
______________________________________
The truth is usually somewhere in the middle ...
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
Judging by his stance and body arrangement in the martial arts picture, he doesn't seem like a good martial artist. And they make it seem amazing that he got his black belt in high school. So do 5 million other kids. Actually one of the best martial artists in my school got his black belt when he was 10. As for the rest of the site. He certainly doesn't seem to be an amazing spiritual teacher. But thats just my opinion.
The Black Whirlwind
Well-Known Member
theres a bunch of info on http://www.trancenet.org/crazyfred/RLDDHOME.shtml about how he's a sexual predator, among other things.
The Black Whirlwind said:
I studied with him. He died in 1998. I fully accept his Enlightenment although I am also aware of all the controversy surrounding him. I have come to see that being Enlightened and behaving in what humans would describe as an exemplary fashion are two completely different things. Some people misinterpret this position of mine (which I have stated elsewhere to friends even though I'm new to posting here) as implying that somehow I believe the Enlightened are exempt from the usual standards of human behavior. Not so. When Rama was alive, if he acted like an a***ole, which at times he did, I dealt with him in the same way that I dealt with any other a***ole. But I could still learn from him in the process.
ayani
member
David40 said:
ok... can i ask a question or two?
what is enlightenment exactly? is it possible to be enlightened and still be a jerk to others? i was under the impression that "enlightenment" involved an opening of the mind to compassion and selflessness.
not to say anyone is perfect, no. but i'm curious as to how you understand "enlightenment". many "teachers" that are on the curcuit / internet these days seem to come across as controling, very image-conscious, and argumentative. are these traits kind of neccesary, or do they get looked over by students?
gracie said:
I define Enlightenment as the complete awareness of life without mental modification. This does indeed seem to allow greater access to compassionate and selfless states of mind but it equally seems to allow greater access to "jerk"/"a***ole" states of mind. If you catch the Enlightened teacher on a good day they will be compassionate beyond words and if you catch them on a bad day they will be the biggest jerk you ever met. In my experience it is appropriate to always be on your guard around them and to respond in the appropriate human manner to however they might be acting at the moment.
In any event, my relationship with an Enlightened teacher is that they are a teacher of meditation. Nothing more. Nothing less. I go to an Enlightened teacher to learn how to meditate. I don't go to them for compassion. If I want compassion I would turn to a friend. An Enlightened teacher is not a friend. An Enlightened teacher is a teacher of meditation.
An Enlightened teacher isn't there to teach you how to be a decent person. That is the job of your parents. If your parents didn't do such a good job and you have already reached adulthood, well, it isn't the Enlightened teacher's job to fill in as surrogate parent.
You know, I'd kind of been waiting to have a Buddhist come in to RF and sort of shake things up. We Buddhists here on RF are normally a rather boring lot since we've mostly agreed on everything so far with each other.
David, can you embellish on some of Rama Lenz's key points in his teachings?
Peace,
Mystic
David, can you embellish on some of Rama Lenz's key points in his teachings?
Peace,
Mystic
Shivadas108
New Member
I know this is an old thread but I wanted to respond. First of all, Rama was not a sexual predator. He never had sex with people against their will. That is an absurd lie. There were many lies and smears against him in the media.
In response to David, if you thought Rama was an *******, you completely missed who Rama was. Yes, like most all fully realized enlightened beings, Rama was controversial and he was tough. Rama was like a mirror to each student. Enlightened teachers are never "normal" and come from a place that most people can never understand. In India, enlightened teachers are called "Avadhuts". They are always unpredictable. If you look at the lives of teachers throughout history like Shirdi Sai Baba, who lived about 100 years ago, or ‪Bhagawan Nityananda‬, most people thought they were completely nuts, and many people hated them. When people came to Shirdi Baba, often times he would just throw rocks at people or smack them over the head with a stick. Was he an ******* for doing so? Believe what you will, but he completely changed people's lives and healed people constantly. He saw things that normal people could not see. Bhagawan Nityananda was the same way as well as many other teachers. Jesus was not crucified for being nice and polite. If you read stories of the old zen masters, they behaved in the same unpredictable ways. Like Rama, Shirdi Sai Baba, and Baghawan, miracles were constantly happening around them at all times. Most people in the west have this preconception that enlightened teachers are supposed to act a certain way and always be logical, "nice" and "polite". Many people also have ideas that compassion is supposed to look a certain way, and compassion means that a person is always polite and nice. Those ideas are total ********. Rama would never physically hit students like so many masters of the past, but he would sometimes yell at his students and call out their ********, but most of the time Rama was very kind and gentle. Enlightened teachers are intense and strong.
Also, the idea that Rama was a cult is laughable. People grow up in public schools, watch television and reality shows, and watch fox news or any other mainstream media, yet they are afraid of being "brainwashed" in a cult. Delusion is a funny thing. Rama was always kicking people out of his program and the door was always open for people who wanted to leave. Enlightened teachers are not there to make your life comfortable, and always pat you on the back and tell you everything that you want to hear. They are intense and strong and they push the boundaries of your very being, and transform your ego and belief systems. They are not always logical. Studying with the enlightened is not always sunshine and rainbows, but sometimes it can be. My most magical beautiful experiences in life were with Rama and my most tough and challenging moments were with Rama also.
Lastly, many people think that Rama committed suicide because he became physically very sick. I think it is very possible that Rama was murdered and his death made to look like suicide. There were press reports that Rama killed himself because he was upset that his dog died, which is just another ludicrous smear. Rama had death threats before he died. An initial police report and NY Times article reported that foul play was not ruled out, and then changed. It took more than 6 months before an autopsy report was filed. Why would cops and feds show up at his house at 12:30 am because they were concerned the lights were on? Cops don't do that and Rama would always stay up all night, so that is very strange. I know this is just conjecture on my part, but maybe Rama allowed his murder to happen for certain reasons beyond our understanding. There are so many other unanswered questions and conflicting questions about his death.
Anyways, all that aside, there is no doubt that Rama was enlightened. I saw Rama walk on air and fly in the desert. I saw him move stars, and everytime I meditated with him, he would completely melt the room in gold light and disappear. If you do a search on youtube for Frederick Lenz, you will find over one hundred videos on his talks and teachings.
In response to David, if you thought Rama was an *******, you completely missed who Rama was. Yes, like most all fully realized enlightened beings, Rama was controversial and he was tough. Rama was like a mirror to each student. Enlightened teachers are never "normal" and come from a place that most people can never understand. In India, enlightened teachers are called "Avadhuts". They are always unpredictable. If you look at the lives of teachers throughout history like Shirdi Sai Baba, who lived about 100 years ago, or ‪Bhagawan Nityananda‬, most people thought they were completely nuts, and many people hated them. When people came to Shirdi Baba, often times he would just throw rocks at people or smack them over the head with a stick. Was he an ******* for doing so? Believe what you will, but he completely changed people's lives and healed people constantly. He saw things that normal people could not see. Bhagawan Nityananda was the same way as well as many other teachers. Jesus was not crucified for being nice and polite. If you read stories of the old zen masters, they behaved in the same unpredictable ways. Like Rama, Shirdi Sai Baba, and Baghawan, miracles were constantly happening around them at all times. Most people in the west have this preconception that enlightened teachers are supposed to act a certain way and always be logical, "nice" and "polite". Many people also have ideas that compassion is supposed to look a certain way, and compassion means that a person is always polite and nice. Those ideas are total ********. Rama would never physically hit students like so many masters of the past, but he would sometimes yell at his students and call out their ********, but most of the time Rama was very kind and gentle. Enlightened teachers are intense and strong.
Also, the idea that Rama was a cult is laughable. People grow up in public schools, watch television and reality shows, and watch fox news or any other mainstream media, yet they are afraid of being "brainwashed" in a cult. Delusion is a funny thing. Rama was always kicking people out of his program and the door was always open for people who wanted to leave. Enlightened teachers are not there to make your life comfortable, and always pat you on the back and tell you everything that you want to hear. They are intense and strong and they push the boundaries of your very being, and transform your ego and belief systems. They are not always logical. Studying with the enlightened is not always sunshine and rainbows, but sometimes it can be. My most magical beautiful experiences in life were with Rama and my most tough and challenging moments were with Rama also.
Lastly, many people think that Rama committed suicide because he became physically very sick. I think it is very possible that Rama was murdered and his death made to look like suicide. There were press reports that Rama killed himself because he was upset that his dog died, which is just another ludicrous smear. Rama had death threats before he died. An initial police report and NY Times article reported that foul play was not ruled out, and then changed. It took more than 6 months before an autopsy report was filed. Why would cops and feds show up at his house at 12:30 am because they were concerned the lights were on? Cops don't do that and Rama would always stay up all night, so that is very strange. I know this is just conjecture on my part, but maybe Rama allowed his murder to happen for certain reasons beyond our understanding. There are so many other unanswered questions and conflicting questions about his death.
Anyways, all that aside, there is no doubt that Rama was enlightened. I saw Rama walk on air and fly in the desert. I saw him move stars, and everytime I meditated with him, he would completely melt the room in gold light and disappear. If you do a search on youtube for Frederick Lenz, you will find over one hundred videos on his talks and teachings.
Philomath
Sadhaka
I take it you were one of his students then?
Shivadas108
New Member
Yes I was and still am..
Philomath
Sadhaka
Well that explains that.
Ravi500
Active Member
Yes, I also do believe that he is enlightened, going through his teachings on the net.
I had gone through the teachings of other masters like Ramana and Krishnamurti, and others, and could feel intuitively that he has attained the state. He speaks with a lot of clarity on the subject, and i picked many points from him as well.
Yes, the enlightened state is a highly ecstatic state. :rainbow1:
And some masters sometimes act in an eccentric manner at times.This can also be for the purpose of teaching a lesson in wisdom as well.
Shivadas108
New Member
No, they didn't consolidate. There may have been a handful of students who saw Adi Da, but not many, and it is unrelated..
First, I don't know about Adidam, but there was no clearly defined organization of Rama's students. People attended his events--in some cases paying considerable sums of tuition--or meditated using his techniques, but there was no specific organization one formally joined or didn't join. Thus, as soon as Rama died and was therefore no longer leading events (at least in the physical sense), Rama's students quickly dispersed as there was no formal organization to hold them together. So it would have been difficult for Rama's student organization to merge with Adidam given that there was no organization that survived Rama's physical death.
Since Rama died without leaving a clear organizational (or spiritual) successor, many of his former students did seek out new spiritual teachers. A significant number--but nowhere near all and probably not even most--did end up with Adidam. I would think the numbers would be more than just a handful though--probably dozens but not hundreds would be my guess. How many of those stayed with Adidam for an extended period, I do not know.
So there was no formal merger of organizations, but there was definitely a significant faction that went on to Adidam from Rama after Rama's physical death.