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Rape in the Brhadaaranyaka Upanishad

तत्त्वप्रह्व

स्वभावस्थं निरावेशम्
I'm not trying to defame the scriptures here or anything. I am just honestly at a loss as to how people who think of them as infallible interpret these verses.
examples of misogyny in Hindu scripture
For Śri Śaṅkara, given your inclination towards advaita, these are texts pertaining to vyāvahārika and therefore unimportant. And as Shivsomashekhar ji suggested, the options you have, therefore, is to accept it as is, and perhaps ignore it. There is no doubt that prima facie it does mean what you've described.

Though, there certainly exists a meaning that is not obnoxious, and is rahasyopāsana. For e.g., the word strī refers to a specific form of Nārāyaṇa, so abusive interpretation would be incongruous. Now if a blind man hits a lamp-post, one cannot hold the it responsible.

I would like to invite @तत्त्वप्रह्व to answer this question, because I believe a Dvaitic answer will provide better clarity than any answer that I could give. Also because this is a fantastic question that I want to see answered by someone with immeasurable shastra-jnana.
@Poeticus ji, you first invite and then disqualify me in the very next sentence by framing it as if it is a praise! Typical naiyāyika :) Will share what i've learnt from Deva-Guru kṛpā though am nowhere close to your qualifier.

When you say that the Rishis "heard" these insights, where do you think the insights were coming from? If anywhere in particular.
I agree with Poeticus ji that the word infallible can be expressed only in terms of svataḥ-prāmāṇya and apauruṣeyatva and is based on the eternality of śabda. Both are primarily not logical constructs, and from the point of view logic, a necessity, but more importantly, experiential. However, infallible in the sense of not deceitful / not liable to error / not misleading are still valid w.r.t. svatah-pramāṇa. When the terms mantra-draṣṭa, or śruti (that which was heard) are used, it is not thru physical eyes/ears, for in that case, logically everything that one hears is a śruti-vākya, and there is no basis for separating out veda-vākyas as śruti. Advaita too accepts both, however, holding one set of vākyās superior to others undermines the svataḥ-prāmāṇya. So śruti vākyas were beheld, or more appropriately i'd say intuited, by ṛṣis in samādhi, and their experiential basis is that anyone with enough sādhāna can intuit them independently, though, only when a new mantra or a new combination or a new meaning is intuited does one become ṛṣi of the mantra, for e.g., Viśvāmitra combined vyāhṛtis and tripadi giving rise to new meaning, hence Viśvāmitra gāyatrī. Now the question of who/what is ultimately intuitive is answered differently by different schools. Both ontological and epistemological stances of each school have a bearing on this, perhaps all are equally valid, but not necessarily equally convincing. From a tattvavāda perspective, this ultimate is the sākṣi and wisdom is intuited in the cit as if a reflection of truth that is as real as truth itself. So the śruti existed even before it was intuited by the first ṛṣi, because only that which exists (real) can be intuited, and unless you have something that is objective as well as that which intuits (two reals) it cannot be held as pramāṇa. Assuming unity reconstitutes everything, with the only plausible option being no ajñāna (bandha/bondage) - no jñāna (mokṣa/release), which basically means, you are wasting your time indulging in śāstras. This is common to both mādhyamika and advaita, though a palatable approach of adhyāsāropa - māyāvāda - promulgated by Śri Śaṅkara is widely known, which eventually culminates in the former. For the realists though, the sākṣi determines wisdom, just as it does w.r.t sukha and duḥkha and this is what is referred to as the mystic haṁsa - the royal white swan capable of separating milk from water (ps: symbolic).

I think, most of your doubts regarding interpretations, upanayana, apparent misogyny will be answered if you receive right guidance from a Guru. In presenting texts thru' translations for contemporary readers, much of the contextual situatedness has been compromised. For e.g., it is a wrong belief that women have no part in vaidik rituals, they only don't have the responsibility of maintaining the yajñopavīta, which for the orthodox, is a very important practice that requires changes in response to several natural occurrences like birth/death etc. Those, if at all, that are now in the practice of giving yajñopavīta to women, have no idea what they are doing. Also, the practice of vedādhyayana by women is not a taboo as it is made out to be, several ṛṣi-patnis are examples for this, though even before the time of Śri Śaṅkara this had deteriorated into what can be considered as male domination in education. Perhaps you already know that many yajñas cannot even be conducted without a dharmapatni.

There is a particular methodology in studying śāstras, how one studies is as important as what is being studied. In the sequence of study, upaniṣads come much later, brahmasūtra after that, very few learn the various interpretations of vedas (several do recite them, but not many understand). If you are interested in advaita/māyāvāda, study prakaraṇas, then Gītā and its bhāṣya, then upaniṣads and its bhāṣya, and so on. Apologies for sounding preachy, but the adhyātmika-adhidaivika problems arising out of speculative misunderstanding is best avoided by a sādhaka.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
"When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her, saying: 'I take away the splendor from you with my virility and splendour.' And she is sure to become bereft of splendour." - Brhadaaranyaka Upanishad 6.4.6-7

What is the context of this verse?
This reads very similar to a verse from the Quran...
 

Stormcry

Well-Known Member
"When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her, saying: 'I take away the splendor from you with my virility and splendour.' And she is sure to become bereft of splendour." - Brhadaaranyaka Upanishad 6.4.6-7

LOL, what a horrible (Biased) translation! Who's the translator? :D *
 
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ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
I have also heard that the Brhadaaranyaka Upanishad(6.4.18) advocates beef eating. It seems it might advocate all sorts of things. It even has Vishnu acting in odd behavior with Sinivali and acting as if He is totally out of control of His sexual desires and begging (or else). I think this Upanishad, which I never read, was questionable even though it comes out of the Shukla Yajur Veda, because according to "scholars" (take that what you will) parts of it were proven dating "way back" but other parts were composed (added) "way later" than for example the Chandogya Upanishad. I think there are a lot of questions about this Upanishad, afterall Brahmins who were suppose to preserve this stuff, well many didn't do a very good job at it. This Upanishad, which I admit I don't think I ever seriously read (I may have read it in the 1970s in detail but frankly forgot about it) appears to have many important and revelations about Atma and the Supreme Brahman and such, which is very good indeed. But other parts, which I suspect came much later as the scholars note, were probably added by some lusty Brahmins frankly. Sorry to say, don't want to cause ruckus but I strongly suspect that.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
It says that both the man and the woman gain glory if the woman consents, but that if she doesn't consent the man takes her glory from her. i.e. if you don't agree to have sex, thereby fulfilling the man's sense of entitlement, then you are sullied.
That will be 'adharma' and breaking of a solumn vow. The fourth vow which they have taken together before relatives and society while going around the wedding fire goes like this:

Bride's vow (Pratigna)
4. शुचि: शृंगारभूषाऽहं वाङ्‌मन: कायकर्मभि: । क्रीडिष्‍यामि त्‍वया सार्धं तुरीये सा वदेव्दरम्‌ ।।
Shuchih shringārabhūshā ऽ ham vāngmanah kāyakarmabhih l krīdishyāmi twayā sārdham turīya sā vadedvaram ll
I will embellish myself with clean attire and will indulge in sexual play with you through acts with the mind, speech and body.
Hindu Marriage and Saptapadi.- meaning and possible application in legal context. | Morpankh

These adjustments have to be made by the two concerned people. Of course, it will be inhuman to ask for sex when the wife is ill, tired, etc. She is certainly no sex-machine. She is a life-partner and among Hindus through many rebirths.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I have also heard that the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad(6.4.18) advocates beef eating.
I would not deny that and I have always maintained that Aryans had no objection to it. But they adopted the practices of the indigenous people they came to live with and who considered cows as 'aghnya' (not to be killed). Without such give and take the assimilation would not have taken place. As for the stories of excited Gods, kindly remember, these are mythological stories. Take them if they have a hidden lesson, or otherwise have a hearty laugh. Brhdaranyaka is probably the oldest Upanishad.
What is the context of this verse?
This reads very similar to a verse from the Quran...
See my post at #13.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
For Śri Śaṅkara, given your inclination towards advaita, these are texts pertaining to vyāvahārika and therefore unimportant. And as Shivsomashekhar ji suggested, the options you have, therefore, is to accept it as is, and perhaps ignore it. There is no doubt that prima facie it does mean what you've described.

Though, there certainly exists a meaning that is not obnoxious, and is rahasyopāsana. For e.g., the word strī refers to a specific form of Nārāyaṇa, so abusive interpretation would be incongruous. Now if a blind man hits a lamp-post, one cannot hold the it responsible.


@Poeticus ji, you first invite and then disqualify me in the very next sentence by framing it as if it is a praise! Typical naiyāyika :) Will share what i've learnt from Deva-Guru kṛpā though am nowhere close to your qualifier.


I agree with Poeticus ji that the word infallible can be expressed only in terms of svataḥ-prāmāṇya and apauruṣeyatva and is based on the eternality of śabda. Both are primarily not logical constructs, and from the point of view logic, a necessity, but more importantly, experiential. However, infallible in the sense of not deceitful / not liable to error / not misleading are still valid w.r.t. svatah-pramāṇa. When the terms mantra-draṣṭa, or śruti (that which was heard) are used, it is not thru physical eyes/ears, for in that case, logically everything that one hears is a śruti-vākya, and there is no basis for separating out veda-vākyas as śruti. Advaita too accepts both, however, holding one set of vākyās superior to others undermines the svataḥ-prāmāṇya. So śruti vākyas were beheld, or more appropriately i'd say intuited, by ṛṣis in samādhi, and their experiential basis is that anyone with enough sādhāna can intuit them independently, though, only when a new mantra or a new combination or a new meaning is intuited does one become ṛṣi of the mantra, for e.g., Viśvāmitra combined vyāhṛtis and tripadi giving rise to new meaning, hence Viśvāmitra gāyatrī. Now the question of who/what is ultimately intuitive is answered differently by different schools. Both ontological and epistemological stances of each school have a bearing on this, perhaps all are equally valid, but not necessarily equally convincing. From a tattvavāda perspective, this ultimate is the sākṣi and wisdom is intuited in the cit as if a reflection of truth that is as real as truth itself. So the śruti existed even before it was intuited by the first ṛṣi, because only that which exists (real) can be intuited, and unless you have something that is objective as well as that which intuits (two reals) it cannot be held as pramāṇa. Assuming unity reconstitutes everything, with the only plausible option being no ajñāna (bandha/bondage) - no jñāna (mokṣa/release), which basically means, you are wasting your time indulging in śāstras. This is common to both mādhyamika and advaita, though a palatable approach of adhyāsāropa - māyāvāda - promulgated by Śri Śaṅkara is widely known, which eventually culminates in the former. For the realists though, the sākṣi determines wisdom, just as it does w.r.t sukha and duḥkha and this is what is referred to as the mystic haṁsa - the royal white swan capable of separating milk from water (ps: symbolic).

I think, most of your doubts regarding interpretations, upanayana, apparent misogyny will be answered if you receive right guidance from a Guru. In presenting texts thru' translations for contemporary readers, much of the contextual situatedness has been compromised. For e.g., it is a wrong belief that women have no part in vaidik rituals, they only don't have the responsibility of maintaining the yajñopavīta, which for the orthodox, is a very important practice that requires changes in response to several natural occurrences like birth/death etc. Those, if at all, that are now in the practice of giving yajñopavīta to women, have no idea what they are doing. Also, the practice of vedādhyayana by women is not a taboo as it is made out to be, several ṛṣi-patnis are examples for this, though even before the time of Śri Śaṅkara this had deteriorated into what can be considered as male domination in education. Perhaps you already know that many yajñas cannot even be conducted without a dharmapatni.

There is a particular methodology in studying śāstras, how one studies is as important as what is being studied. In the sequence of study, upaniṣads come much later, brahmasūtra after that, very few learn the various interpretations of vedas (several do recite them, but not many understand). If you are interested in advaita/māyāvāda, study prakaraṇas, then Gītā and its bhāṣya, then upaniṣads and its bhāṣya, and so on. Apologies for sounding preachy, but the adhyātmika-adhidaivika problems arising out of speculative misunderstanding is best avoided by a sādhaka.

श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु ।

Thankyou Tattva, this is highly informative, and will take a second read to digest fully.

I think I will take your advice, and hold off on the Upanishads for now, and instead go and study prakaraṇas.

I have not yet been lucky enough to find a Guru. A matter of time, hopefully. Nevertheless, I am going to be taught in raja yoga (including meditation) by somebody who certainly has a good knowledge of many śāstras, so I'll see what his opinion is on this as well.

What is the context of this verse?
This reads very similar to a verse from the Quran...

It's coming after a passage primarily about semen, and what to do if one loses semen through what I think probably meant masturbation and wet dreams. But, in respect to what Tattva has said, I'm not really in a place where I can draw such conclusions about what it's saying.

LOL, what a horrible (Biased) translation! Who's the translator? :D *

Patrick Olivelle. I don't know how good his translations are.

I hope to learn Sanskrit someday, which will be make my studies more accurate.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
That will be 'adharma' and breaking of a solumn vow. The fourth vow which they have taken together before relatives and society while going around the wedding fire goes like this:

To clarify, I mean that if a woman doesn't want to have sex with her husband full stop, then a divorce is in order. If a woman doesn't want to have sex on a particular occasion, then just don't have sex on that occasion.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
To clarify, I mean that if a woman doesn't want to have sex with her husband full stop, then a divorce is in order. If a woman doesn't want to have sex on a particular occasion, then just don't have sex on that occasion.
According to the Indian law of the day, if you are not sexually satisfied with your wife, you ask for a divorce, but you cannot use violence. In olden days when there was no divorce, both parties needed to adjust. Advice of elders from both the families, they were the trouble-shooters. In history, Hinduism had no problem with polygamy or even polyandry. Multiple wives were supposed to live like sisters in harmony, like Dasharatha's three and Vasudeva's two. I do not know how many Krishna had, but at least eight.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
According to the Indian law of the day, if you are not sexually satisfied with your wife, you ask for a divorce, but you cannot use violence. In olden days when there was no divorce, both parties needed to adjust. Advice of elders from both the families, they were the trouble-shooters. In history, Hinduism had no problem with polygamy or even polyandry. Multiple wives were supposed to live like sisters in harmony, like Dasharatha's three and Vasudeva's two. I do not know how many Krishna had, but at least eight.

What if a woman isn't sexually satisfied with her husband? :)
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Call on the Devas as Madri did to beget Nakul and Sahadeva of the Pandavas. They were always obliging. (She approached the Ashwini Kumaras) :D

A child born out of wedlock if accepted by the father iwas considered legitimate. Niyoga, asking a relative to father a child was acceptable. Dhritarashtra and Pandu (also Vidura) were sons of the widowed wives of Vichitravirya, whom Sage Vedavyasa (a brother) impregnated.
 
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Tyaga

Na Asat
Namaste,

The entire chapter from Brhadaranyaka Upanishad is about conceiving a child(the following verses even contain how to make love with the wife and give birth to a healthy baby).The husband married his wife for a reason,i.e to make a family and have children.If the wife refuses to have children with her husband even after many friendly conversions,what else should the husband do?Why did the wife even bother marrying the husband if she can't bear his children?In modern times we can file a divorce in these situations.But I'm sure that in the ancient time of Upanishads(around 3000 years ago) it was certainly not the case.I do agree that there are sexual overtones in this chapter,but sexual overtones are nothing new in Sanskrit texts.If you know about the descriptions of Ashvamedha and Mahavrata rites,you will know what I mean.

About the passage from Brahmasutra,Brahmasutra is just a commentary on the Vedantic concepts and it simply reflects narrator's own interpretation.From Upanishads themselves,we know of female philosophers like Maitreyi,Gargi etc.Even in Rig Veda,there is Lopamudra,wife of Rishi Agastya.

Also,the passage from Rig Veda again simply speaks about the poet's own thoughts.Vedas were NOT composed(or 'discovered' according to Apaurusheyatva) by a Rishi.They were composed by various Rishis and Kavis of various Gotras in their own point of view.For example we have BOTH burial and cremation hymns in the RIg Veda.Do any other major religion have dual funerary rites which completely contradicts each other?

Another thing to note is that we have many other verses from Rig Veda glorifying femininity.Check the hymns dedicated to Aditi,Ushas,Sarasvati,Prithvi etc.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I do not think the descriptions of Ashvamedha and Mahavratas are true to the Aryan tradition. By the time these were written (Yajurveda ?), the true traditions were forgotten.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
The husband married his wife for a reason,i.e to make a family and have children.If the wife refuses to have children with her husband even after many friendly conversions,what else should the husband do?Why did the wife even bother marrying the husband if she can't bear his children?

You can think of no other reasons for marriage?

I do agree that there are sexual overtones in this chapter,but sexual overtones are nothing new in Sanskrit texts.

It was more the explicit instructions to rape somebody which I was objecting to than the sexual overtones, to be honest.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You can think of no other reasons for marriage?
Of course, there are, but this is primary social and biological reason. Aupmanyav said marriage is 75% duty and 25% fun.
It was more the explicit instructions to rape somebody which I was objecting to than the sexual overtones, to be honest.
I too would not agree to that. What is the hurry?There is a whole life-time for it. We did not consummate marriage on the first night after the wedding. It was an arranged marriage and we did not know each other.
 
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Tyaga

Na Asat
Namaste,

You can think of no other reasons for marriage?

I honestly can't find no other reason for marriages.A person can abide by Brahmacharya until death if he/she doesn't want to get married and have a family by leading Grhastha life.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Namaste,

I honestly can't find no other reason for marriages.A person can abide by Brahmacharya until death if he/she doesn't want to get married and have a family by leading Grhastha life.

Well, many people get married and choose to never have children. Many married people can't have children, for a variety of reasons. Even those that do are probably marrying for reasons such as wanting to be together, loving each other, etc, not just for the purpose of procreation.

Although personally, I will probably be Brahmachari for the rest of my life.
 

Tyaga

Na Asat
Namaste
Well, many people get married and choose to never have children. Many married people can't have children, for a variety of reasons. Even those that do are probably marrying for reasons such as wanting to be together, loving each other, etc, not just for the purpose of procreation.

The context of BAU verses are clear,a man married his wife to have children and a family.And the wife refuses to bear his children even after many friendly dialogues.If both husband and wife decided to live together without having any children,then the man would have not approached the wife in the fist place.Yes,there are couples who can't have children because of infertility,but this case is out of the present context.

Although personally, I will probably be Brahmachari for the rest of my life.

Brahmacharya doesn't always mean living without marriage.Even Vedic Rishis had wives :)
Brahmacharya actually refers to the student stage in which we need to study the Vedic texts.But in modern times,the meaning have been changed.
 
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