Rape under Shariah

[Shadow Wolf]

I think we should take Muslims at their word. Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect, timeless, and easy to understand. Muslims claim that Muhammad's life was the perfect role model for how to live. And, despite centuries of pressure, Muslims refuse to reform Islam's core claims.

That all equally applies to the Bible, but many Christians don't follow any of it, just as many Muslims don't follow those claims in the Quran.

"islamophobia" is inherently a dishonest word.

No. Does it get misused like racist? Sure does. But there are still legit Islamophobes who bark at caricatures of Islam just as there are negrophobes who think a hardline approach to Malcom X summarizes black people as a group.

 

[sun rise]

It's anything but convenient. It's a word designed by propagandists to attempt to hide the bad ideas baked into Islam.

Each religion is a set of ideas. Many of the core ideas in Islam are divisive and hateful. It is not at all "phobic" to take issue with the misogyny, anti-Semitism, theocracy, homophobia, and "us vs. them" worldviews that are baked into Islam.

Baked into Russia. Baked into Christianity. Baked into so many man us vs them all over the world.

I suppose we'll get into a cherry picking Quran/Hadith back and forth leading nowhere.

 

[icehorse]

That all equally applies to the Bible, but many Christians don't follow any of it, just as many Muslims don't follow those claims in the Quran.

agreed, but.

No. Does it get misused like racist? Sure does. But there are still legit Islamophobes who bark at caricatures of Islam just as there are negrophobes who think a hardline approach to Malcom X summarizes black people as a group.

what's irrational about disliking many of Islams ideas? because "phobic" means irrational.

 

[icehorse]

Baked into Russia. Baked into Christianity. Baked into so many man us vs them all over the world.

I suppose we'll get into a cherry picking Quran/Hadith back and forth leading nowhere.

I agree with you. And many times on this forum I've criticized Christianity and other "us vs. them" worldviews.

 

[icehorse]

..still peddling hate, I see.

Muslims approach the rest of us demanding that we accept their regressive, divisive worldview. It is not hateful for us to say no, in fact I would contend it's merciful

 

[Raymann]

I do agree that immigration is a serious issue.

..but what's the cause?
An imbalance in wealth between nations, I would say.
The global financial system causes oppression.

Example: median wealth in Afghanistan is $290, whereas in France it is $106,820.
Refugees often arrive with nothing other than a backpack.

So Afghanistan people are 79 times more likely to commit rape than swedes because of the imbalance in wealth between nations?
Are you serious?
So hunger or the lack of material things cause Muslims to rape women?
What is this world come to?
Muslims rape because of poverty?
Or because they hate the women in the countries that host them and gave them refuge?
Is that the way they thank their hosts?

 

[RestlessSoul]

I agree with you. And many times on this forum I've criticized Christianity and other "us vs. them" worldviews.

And yet here you are demonising a section of humanity you characterise as “them”

 

[icehorse]

And yet here you are demonising a section of humanity you characterise as “them”

I'm criticizing IDEAS. Every individual Muslim is free to change their mind, right? (Okay, to be fair that's a bit of a "gotcha" question, because as we know, one of Islam's horrible ideas is that leaving the faith is a crime, sigh.)

So you tell me, how are we to compassionately tolerate the intolerant?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

what's irrational about disliking many of Islams ideas? because "phobic" means irrational.

It's not inherently irrational. But it is when you are barking at a caricature of the worst Muslims out there and saying that's the entirety. Like when this barking seems entirely ignorant of the context of what they cite, such as how much of violence in the Quran is commanded as self defense, and establishes guidelines and rules that groups like ISIS do violate.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So hunger or the lack of material things cause Muslims to rape women?
What is this world come to?

Indeed, the world is in a mess.
Hate and right-wing govts. are on the increase.
Personally, I prefer peace .. but am unlikely to find it.

Hitler came to power due to economics, and we all know what happened.
This time round, we have climate-change and its knock on effects to boot.

Islamic prophecy tells of a time when the person killed will not know why he is killed, and the person killing won't know why he is killing.
..and all because of money .. usury is a major sin for a reason.
It promotes greed which in turn promotes hate.

 

[sun rise]

So you tell me, how are we to compassionately tolerate the intolerant?

By pointing out their intolerance and mistakes as we've been doing in this thread.

 

[Raymann]

Islamic prophecy tells of a time when the person killed will not know why he is killed, and the person killing won't know why he is killing.
..and all because of money .. usury is a major sin for a reason.
It promotes greed which in turn promotes hate.

That is a problem for another thread.
I still don't believe rape has anything to do with economics.
Rape committed by Muslims is caused by Islam and the Islamic culture.
Most of these Muslim rapists are living in better economic conditions than ever in their lives.
They get a nice home to live in for free, and they are given jobs and even get some money.
Still, when they have an opportunity they go hunting for women who can then rape.
Totally disgusting, no excuse, it has to stop.

 

[icehorse]

But it is when you are barking at a caricature of the worst Muslims out there and saying that's the entirety

sure, there are those that do that. but that doesn't make the word more honest.

 

[icehorse]

By pointing out their intolerance and mistakes as we've been doing in this thread.

The way you phrased that compels me to ask you who you're seeing as intolerant in this discussion?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

sure, there are those that do that. but that doesn't make the word more honest.

There are Christians who insist it is their right to discriminate against queers, but that doesn't mean it's a Biblically supported conclusion.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

There are Christians who insist it is their right to discriminate against queers, but that doesn't mean it's a Biblically supported conclusion.

In before what can only be described as a strawman, where superficial English only contextless scripture is applied, not because they actually think it's more scholarly, but because it's an easier argument to knock down. So even though millions upon millions of Christians have no problem squaring their biblical interpretation with LGBT rights, people on both sides, literalist Christians and literalist atheists, will continue telling them what they must actually believe in, instead of addressing what they actually believe.

I imagine non-literalist Muslims have an even worse time of it from similar groups.

 

[icehorse]

There are Christians who insist it is their right to discriminate against queers, but that doesn't mean it's a Biblically supported conclusion.

I'm being sincere. I'm having trouble connecting what you just said to our previous exchange, can you clarify? thanks

 

[icehorse]

In before what can only be described as a strawman, where superficial English only contextless scripture is applied, not because they actually think it's more scholarly, but because it's an easier argument to knock down. So even though millions upon millions of Christians have no problem squaring their biblical interpretation with LGBT rights, people on both sides, literalist Christians and literalist atheists, will continue telling them what they must actually believe in, instead of addressing what they actually believe.

I imagine non-literalist Muslims have an even worse time of it from similar groups.

Each religion boils down to a unique set of ideas, correct? So when a person identifies as a Muslim or a Christian or a Buddhist or whatever, it is a shorthand way of letting the world know at least some of what they believe.

If they don't believe the ideas in the religion they're declaring, that's on them, not on the rest of us, correct? In other words, if someone tells me they're a Muslim, isn't the respectful thing for me to do is take them at their word and not assume "oh they must not be a "literalist" Muslim".

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This is a pretty big claim to make, considering rape statistics are extremely difficult to compare country to country, and rape is often severely under-reported in certain countries, so what info we have is patchy at best.

Nevertheless, let's take a look at what statistics we have. In order, the countries with the highest rape rates are:

1) Botswana - 92.93
(Majority religion: Christian - 79.1%, Islam: less than 1.4%)

2) Lesotho - 82.68
(Majority religion: Christian - 93%, Islam: less than 0.2%)

3) South Africa - 72.1
(Majority religion: Christian - 68%, Islam: 2%)

4) Bermuda - 67.29
(Majority religion: Christian - 71.1%, Islam: 1%)

5) Sweden - 63.54
(Majority religion: Christian - 64.9%, Islam: 2.3%)

6) Suriname - 45.21
(Majority religion: Christian - 48.4%, Islam: 13.9%)

7) Costa Rica - 36.7
(Majority religion: Christian - 94%, Islam: 0.1%)

8) Nicaragua - 31.6
(Majority religion: Christian - 83.1%, Islam: less than 1.6%)

9) Grenada - 30.63
(Majority religion: Christian - 86.4%, Islam: less than 5.5%)

10) Saint Kitts and Nevis - 28.62
(Majority religion: Christian - 87.6%, Islam: 0.52%)

SOURCES:
Rape Statistics by Country 2022
Religion in Botswana - Wikipedia
Religion in Lesotho - Wikipedia
Religion in South Africa - Wikipedia
Bermuda Religions - Demographics
Religion in Sweden - Wikipedia
Religion in Suriname - Wikipedia
Religion in Costa Rica - Wikipedia
Religion in Nicaragua - Wikipedia
Grenada - Wikipedia
Saint Kitts and Nevis - Wikipedia

So, based on the statistics we have at hand (that are admittedly incomplete, at the very least), we can say that the conclusion assumed by your question/premise is flawed.

/thread

I'm loathe to jump onto this topic. While the OP is misdirected, I don't think the statistics you're presenting here are anything like 'close thread' slam dunks.

Credible and detailed reporting on Swedish sexual assaults and rapes (at least) don't support a contention that there is no impact on the prevalence of rape by first and second generation immigration, at all.

Equally, I lived in a poor, overwhelmingly Christian country (PNG) where the safety of women is horrendously poor. In a 2016 study, 59% of interviewed men admitted to raping a woman at some point of their life, which is obviously an extreme statistic.

So I'm not here suggesting that Islam is an effective identifier of rape.

What I would suggest is that different cultural groups (and I'm talking at a much more granular level than 'Muslims' or 'Christians') do indeed have different attitudes towards women, and different cultural expectations.

There are things counted as rape in Sweden that aren't even criminal in some countries.

I think it's important we keep things evidence based, and acknowledge that no single factor or single set of evidence is very compelling. But neither should evidence be ignored, or waved away if it is uncomfortable.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you wonder why everywhere you find Muslims the rape rate is so high?
There are a few reasons:
The Islamic culture and Shariah are the main culprits.
Every woman who according to the Muslim culture is not properly covered is a target to be raped.
Ask the Swedish girls who now even paint their hair thinking that would help.
She was looking for it, "they would say".
Young Muslims cannot have sex until they get married and they are not even allowed to masturbate.
They cannot have sex with prostitutes either so at some point, they are like loose animals in heat.
Sharia doesn't help either, in fact, makes the problem worst.
Islam makes rape almost impossible to prosecute under its Shariah law and Muslims know it.
Men know it and women know it.
Men know they can easily get away with it and women know they risk prison or even being stoned to death by accusing a rapist.
Thank Allah for that.
Example:
A man arrives home to find his wife being raped.
He catches and takes the man to the police.
The man claims it was consensual sex.
The woman claims it was rape.
The man's word in a court of law is worth twice the word of a woman.
The victim (the woman) has no chance, therefore.
The witness is worthless since both, the victim and the rapist have admitted to having sex.
The judgment is therefore according to Shariah a clear case of adultery (sex outside of marriage).
The woman can pay with her life by being stoned to death.
The man carries a lesser penalty (some lashes and prison)
Thanks again, Allah.

There are certainly some Muslims who interpret the Quran in a way to allow them to rape women and girls. The Iranian theocracy has been doing that. They have been raping the political prisoners in prisons. That's well known in Iran. It is recorded that they raped virgin girls in prison, so, They may not go to heaven. They believe virgins go to heaven.
But it doesn't mean all Muslims do that. Most of them do not.