Rape under Shariah

[Shadow Wolf]

@icehorse has done nothing of the sort.

Then what is he talking about when he indicated getting to know some Muslims is irrelevant next to the billions of them and it amounts to nothing more than a personal anecdote?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sorry, but the sheer amount of brutal islamic groups like Isis is SO HUGE that I can't take it seriously when somebody suggest it is disconnected from Islam.

Yeah, ISIS isn't that big of a group, with many methods condemned the Quran and by Islamic scholars alike.

 

[muhammad_isa]

None of this is "islamophobia". Instead, it is just having the courage to face the facts.

Such numbers are HUGE and they require an explanation. And I don't see how any such explanation is possible, without also including islam into it.

I do. Poverty and ignorance explain a lot.
It can't be easy to know that many countries are relatively wealthy while you are suffering.

 

[dybmh]

You should know by now that there are no official States statistics pointing out who is committing the rapes.
But there are many studies conducted by private entities that show statistics based on real cases and show in detail who are the people committing the crimes.
Take a look at the following article. It has been written based on many different studies you can check yourself. There are many others like this one where you can get a clear picture of the real situation.

Sweden: Migrant-Background Rapists Make Up Majority of Attackers

Look at this very explicit title:
Rapes are rampant in Sweden, following years of Muslim immigration. An alarmingly high percentage of the victims are children.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2017/07/swedens-islamic-rape-epidemic-almost-half-of-victims-are-children

You said: "But there are many studies conducted by private entities that show statistics based on real cases and show in detail who are the people committing the crimes." Neither of these two sources provide "in detail" who are committing the crimes.

The first source contained 2 studies.

The first one was published in 2017 but the data is from 2015, so it's a bit old to be considered evidence of an ongoing problem. It only studies Sweden, so that's a bit narrow to make global conclusions about a religion. It also was not able to identify any details other than migrant status and continent of origin. ( That was part of your claim ) It didn't even track country of origin. So making the leap between 'Middle East/North African origin' and 'Muslim who was influenced SO MUCH by the Sharia Law in their home country that they committed rape in the new country, thinking it would be like home, and they wouldn't get caught' is something happening in your own brain, not something that is included in this study.

The second study was slightly more detailed, we still didn't get ethnicity, or religious status. It did correlate poor education with the rapists, though. Even more restrictive than the other study above, this study only includes data from 1 specific city in Sweden. So that, again, is not helpful supporting a claim of a global problem with a specific religion. The scope is too narrow. Not only that, but it studied less than 30 cases, if I read correctly. That's a very very small sample.

The second source you provided claims it can tie rape cases ( again only focusing on Sweden ) to countries of origin, but both the links provided to support these claims are broken. So, it really doesn't help your argument.

The other comment I have is that both Breitbart, and JihadWatch are questionable news sources. You're tipping your hand a bit, revealing a bias by directing readers to these 2 sites.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yeah, ISIS isn't that big of a group, with many methods condemned the Quran and by Islamic scholars alike.

You keep saying this, but you never defend it. When I say that the Qur'an encourages fighting, I back it up.

For example (see how that sounds? You might try it sometime.) verse 9:111, IMO, is one of the most important in the Qur'an, not only because of what it says, but because of its timing. It's one of the last verses created, which therefore demonstrates where Mohamed had taken Islam 20 years after inventing it. He was trying to rally the troops (troops didn't even exist in the first 12 years) to make war with the Byzantines when 'Allah' told him this: "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

There are dozens of Islamic jihad groups spitting Allah's love and peace out of the barrels of AK-47s, and verses such as the above tell you EXACTLY why they're doing it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".

Nothing wrong with that.
Do you think Ukraine should just "roll over" ?

 

[Raymann]

So for those (Islamic) sects which have a leader prepared to blanket ban rape I think we should treat those Muslims differently to the Muslims that do permit rape.

It is important to clarify that I don't think there is any Muslim Sheik, Islamic sects nor Islamic laws that explicitly allow rape. In fact, the penalty for rape under Islam is death.
The problem is that it is impossible to prove rape under Islamic Shariah (Islamic laws).
In short, Islam harshly penalizes rape and at the same time makes it impossible to prove cases of rape.
You see the problem. On one hand, we cannot blame Islam and on the other hand, it is all Islam's fault.

 

[Raymann]

You said: "But there are many studies conducted by private entities that show statistics based on real cases and show in detail who are the people committing the crimes." Neither of these two sources provide "in detail" who are committing the crimes.

You need to understand that none of the statistics available point specifically at Muslims as the sole reason to the problem.
That said if we evaluate that it is a fact that rape has increased dramatically after the big wave of immigrants to Europe from mostly Muslim countries then you have to draw some conclusions.
Example:
Most immigrants arriving in the wave are Muslims.
Most rapes are attributed to newly arrived immigrants.
Do we need to be geniuses to deduct that Muslim immigrants are responsible for the majority of the rapes?

 

[dybmh]

if we evaluate that it is a fact that rape has increased dramatically after the big wave of immigrants to Europe from mostly Muslim countries then you have to draw some conclusions.

I don't think you've shown this as fact. You've brought some data from Sweden, but that's not Europe. You also haven't shown the trend of a big wave. The point I was making is that the conclusion you're drawing is your own. You haven't brought evidence of the connection. If you say it doesn't exist, then that should temper your confidence in the conclusion.

Most immigrants arriving in the wave are Muslims.

Show it with evidence.

Most rapes are attributed to newly arrived immigrants.

In one study, from 2015, focused exclusively on Sweden.

Do we need to be geniuses to deduct that Muslim immigrants are responsible for the majority of the rapes?

The best you can say is that the majority of the rapes are from immigrants, and a good portion of those come from the Middle East and Northern Africa. Even if these immigrants identify as Muslim, what we don't know is how influenced they were by Sharia Law and the lack of repercussions in their original homes. So, you might be able to label them "most likely Muslims", but you can't blame Islam without more evidence.

 

[stevecanuck]

Nothing wrong with that.
Do you think Ukraine should just "roll over" ?

Is a variation of the old self defense trope the best you can do?

Neither you nor anyone else has explained what Muslim armies were doing in places like northern Africa, Europe, and India 'defending' themselves. They were armies of conquest, and nothing you say will ever change that fact.

 

[stevecanuck]

It is important to clarify that I don't think there is any Muslim Sheik, Islamic sects nor Islamic laws that explicitly allow rape. In fact, the penalty for rape under Islam is death.

You have to differentiate between the rape of captives/slaves versus Muslims (except wives, who can be raped according to verse 2:223).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I do. Poverty and ignorance explain a lot.
It can't be easy to know that many countries are relatively wealthy while you are suffering.

BS.

Bin Laden was filthy rich.
The MANY "foreign fighters" that went to Syria from Europe were all but "poor" also.

I actually knew several of them. Most not personally, but through mutual friends and alike.
They weren't "poor". They were just middle class. Many weren't even of arab descent.

Having said that, poor people that aren't taken in by violent islamic doctrine don't act like that either.

To say that the core doctrines of Islam are irrelevant to these islamic militant groups, is to simply deny reality and the facts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

BS.

How would you know?
Are you in poverty and uneducated?

Bin Laden was filthy rich.
The MANY "foreign fighters" that went to Syria from Europe were all but "poor" also.

You are changing the subject.
We are talking about the results of a survey regards the attitude of Muslims to al Qaeda in Indonesia and Egypt.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How would you know?

I just told you in the post you are replying to.

You are changing the subject.

No, I'm not.

We are talking about the results of a survey regards the attitude of Muslims to al Qaeda in Indonesia and Egypt.

No, we are not.
Those were just illustrations to make the point that while the statement "most muslims disagree with this" is true, there is the reverse side that while just a minority DOES agree with it, it still consists of a big chunk of people. A chunk far to big to just brush of as if they are irrelevant. They are not.

Having said that, on the poverty point..... PLENTY of countries and people live in poverty without resorting to practices the likes of that ISIS, Al qaida, Boko Haram, etc etc etc etc engage in.

And there is ONE thing that unifies all these groups. And that is the thing with which they defend their actions and with which they motivate it also.

And you know what that ONE thing is.
I'm going to allow you the chance of stating what that one thing is.

And it's not "poverty", as I have explained.

The Abdeslams weren't poor. None of the Belgians who went to Syria and joined up with ISIS were.
Several of them weren't even of arab descent.

Clearly, something else motivated them.

Guess what it was.

Here's a hint. The first wave of Belgians that went there, were recruited by a now-disbanded group called "Shariah4Belgium".

I've had several encounters with those dogs myself.

 

[Raymann]

The best you can say is that the majority of the rapes are from immigrants, and a good portion of those come from the Middle East and Northern Africa. Even if these immigrants identify as Muslim, what we don't know is how influenced they were by Sharia Law and the lack of repercussions in their original homes. So, you might be able to label them "most likely Muslims", but you can't blame Islam without more evidence.

That's a pretty good summary,
The majority of rapes are from immigrants. TRUE
Most of these immigrants come from the Middle East and Northern Africa. TRUE
Most of these immigrants are Muslims TRUE
Can we blame Islam for the actions of Muslims? PARTIALLY YES.
Is rape easy to prove under Shariah? NO
Is it true that Muslim women would never accuse a rapist for fear to be accused of adultery? YES
So most rapes in Muslim countries are not reported? TRUE
Are there statistics of non-reported rapes? NO
Non-reported means is not happening? FALSE

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, we are not.
Those were just illustrations to make the point..

Well, that is what I was replying to.

The reverse is that respectively 23% and 20% is favorable to al-qaida. Do you know how many people that is?

That's 1 in 5 Egyptians and almost 1 in 4 Indonesians.
...
Such numbers are HUGE and they require an explanation. And I don't see how any such explanation is possible, without also including islam into it.

I am not saying that it has nothing to do with religion, as religion and politics are intertwined, but your claim that poverty doesn't affect people's attitudes is quite absurd.

 

[stevecanuck]

but your claim that poverty doesn't affect people's attitudes is quite absurd.

Strawman. He did NOT say that. He said being poor doesn’t account for terrorism.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Strawman. He did NOT say that. He said being poor doesn’t account for terrorism.

Terrorism is evil. There are multiple reason why people might commit evil. Poverty being one of them.

Most acts of terrorism are political in nature. Religion and politics are often intertwined.
Were WWI & WWII caused by Islamic sentiment?
I don't think so.

 

[stevecanuck]

Terrorism is evil. There are multiple reason why people might commit evil. Poverty being one of them.

The words in the Qur'an and the example set by Mohamed and the first Muslims being another.

Most acts of terrorism are political in nature. Religion and politics are often intertwined.
Were WWI & WWII caused by Islamic sentiment?
I don't think so.

And finish with another strawman/non sequitur.

 

[stevecanuck]

Terrorism is evil. There are multiple reason why people might commit evil. Poverty being one of them.

You have yet to explain how the great Islamic empire was created by fighting only in self defense.