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Rasing the minimum wage could cost jobs
- Thread starter esmith
- Start date
A small glimpse into increased unemployment:
I've watched as machine shops unload older (even high precision) tools to replace them with advanced computer controlled machines. Far more work can be done with fewer people. This machines-taking-over-human-jobs-scenario will be writ large upon all industry.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
What are you talking about?
I have the same expectations in my 30s that my parents had in their 30s.
My parents are professionals and decided early on that they wanted to provide a stability for us, before "us" were born.
I knew at 16 that my minimum wage job was a temporary situation. I had roommates while working my minimum wage job. I never dreamed of starting a family on minimum wage.
I can't relate to many Americans who believe that you can make it on minimum wage. You've never been able to lead a comfortable and stable lifestyle on minimum wage. It's harder now than it was 30 years ago, but, it wasn't easy then.
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Why should raising the minimum wage be expected to fix all issues? That would be an incredibly simplistic solution to the complex problem of income and wealth disparity currently attacking the very foundations of our economy.
It is certainly a step in the right direction, a step towards solving that problem. But it is not the whole solution.
Just because it is a small step, it shouldn't be considered useless, nor should it be considered a failure if it can't fix everything. That shouldn't be the expectation.
Alceste
Vagabond
Sounds like a change of subject to me, but I'll bite. I'm actually an advocate of a living wage model, not a minimum wage model. My preferred system would peg the minimum full time salary at what a worker would need to live completely independently of government or family assistance and without slipping deeper and deeper into debt. That would take into account the average rent in a small studio apartment or shared house. Obviously a change like that couldn't happen over night. It would be phased in very gradually to allow businesses to adjust to each incremental increase in hourly wages and the resulting increase in demand for their products and services.
Will that ever happen? Not very likely. Politicians and the media are completely insulated from ideas like this by swarms of lobbyists advocating for a system that sucks the maximum possible share of the wealth created by any endeavor into the pockets of the ultra-rich, leaving everyone else high and dry.
But to get back to the original subject, under the current minimum wage model, since low wage earners spend everything they earn locally before tapping into government benefits, the family or the credit card, every increase in wages is matched by an increase in economic activity resulting in more jobs. Is it a perfect answer? No, but in BC these folks are certainly far better off making $10.75 an hour than they were making $8.50.
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dawny0826
Mother Heathen
You missed my point entirely, then.
I don't really care if the minimum wage is raised, but, I don't particularly want to hear belly aching by the same people who are pushing for it with such might, when inflation occurs and people lose jobs.
It'll take time to see any positive impact on the economy and there will be negative consequences as well.
And those who have the expectation of living off of a mininum wage and having the means to afford nice housing, nice cars, nice clothing and perks need to get real. You can't raise a family on minimum wage - you're going to struggle to take care of yourself and I tire of hearing people in my community belly ache as if they didn't know that you couldn't make it on minimum wage. I have no patience for this brand of ignorance.
Alceste
Vagabond
How so?
Wages have not kept up with inflation, and minimum wage isn't the only culprit. You could live a comfortable middle class life on a job for which you needed little (initial) skill or knowledge because they trained you there. Isn't it also amazing how nearly every household was a single income one? What happened? Are people that much lazier, that much more unmotivated?
The emphasis upon college degrees is also relatively new. A college degree used to mean something. It used to get you into an upper tier job with financial stability. Now, it gets your foot in the door, with low wages and no benefits, and lots of debt.
Alceste
Vagabond
Yup. The day bankers realized degrees could be marketed as an elite product, like cars, was the death of higher education.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
Wrong-o. I've conveyed my thoughts consistently.
That's beautiful. But, respectfully, I'm not going to entertain something that is farther from the reality in my community right now.
I haven't opposed an increase in mininum wage. What we agree on, is that it's not a solution to the problems that exist.
What I tire of is the mindset that an American family CAN live comfortably on a minimum wage. It's not feasible. You cannot, as an American expect financial stability while working entry-level, minimum wage positions.
But, yet, Americans tend to demonize companies for not paying entry-level workers more money and demonize people like myself who can't help but asking...why the hell didn't you pursue something else?
I was pointing out that your point missed the point.
1. Raising the minimum wage shouldn't be expected to fix all the problems. Your expectation, therefore, is a strawman, e.g. "Look! Raising minimum wage to $10 still doesn't make it a living wage. Therefore, it fails!"
2. This is a point that many people seem to miss on a lot of different problem solving solutions. Just because a solution does not fix all the problems does not make it pointless. Just like in evolution, often times incremental changes over time is what you need. Some things just can't be done in one fell swoop. You can't climb to the top without taking a bunch of steps.
Minimum wage actually hasn't risen with inflation. Raising it to $10 would link it back to where it should already be. Funny how your argument is never mentioned in conjunction with the soaring CEO wages.
As for losing jobs, various studies just haven't supported it.
As for bellyaching, people will always belly ache. But at least now you can educate them: Raising the minimum wage wasn't meant to fix all the problems. It is one of the first steps along that path.
It's the same with working out. As we all know, however, that is no good reason not to do it.
So?
I have no patience for those who therefore think "People are dumb. Therefore, we should allow businesses to take advantage of them." Or "$10 isn't enough for people to live on. Therefore, we should just keep it at $7.
areyoucra)" Or "We should keep on allowing businesses to allow government to subsidize their lower tier workers, through social programs."
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Alceste
Vagabond
Not everybody is cut out to be a software engineer or an investment broker, Dawny. And there is a legitimate demand in our society for people who clean hotel rooms, pick fruit, scrape bubble gum off movie theatre seats, etc. That demand isn't going to go away just because one particularly talented fruit picker decides he'd rather be a brain surgeon and decides to go for it. And it's demand that creates the jobs. Long after he enrolls in med school, his low wage job will still exist. Somebody else will be doing it. Hopefully somebody who just doesn't have what it takes to be a brain surgeon.
What we hope for is that unskilled laborers are matched with appropriate work instead of living on welfare. If they're working full time already and contributing to society all that they are capable of or qualified for, and they are STILL dependent on government benefits for subsistence, something is broken in our economy and needs to be fixed.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
No. My parents couldn't live a comfortable middle class life until my parents both took jobs where they were using their degrees. When only my father was working within a professional capacity, they struggled financially and my mother had to go back to work full time, as they had another child. They couldn't afford the home that was required or the provide for us the way that they needed to until both were working.
Don't oversimplify. 30-40 years ago, families were making the same decisions that they are making now and there's a significant difference in the comfort and stability that you can provide your family when you're looking at the lower end of the middle class spectrum and the higher end.
Sure, if you consider, the last 40-50 years "relatively" new. A college degree still means something. I made less than my counterparts BECAUSE I lack a degree. I've been successful because of my experience, but, I will make more money when I complete my degree. Thats hasn't changed.
Those who pursue professional careers still have the ability to pursue a better degree of financial stability over those who opt out.
I don't think I am over simplifying. Chart after chart indicates that Americans are making less for doing more work, while creating greater profits. This trend certainly seems to have accelerated over the past 20 years.
College degrees are being required for work that doesn't really need them. The workforce is oversaturated with college degrees. The fact that a college degree would help you get a better job isn't what I'm arguing. In fact, that proves the point: You need to have a college degree to basically get ANY sort of job, nowadays.
It's complete BS, btw and imo, that you will get paid more simply because you have a piece of paper. Your experience is what is making you good at your job, and that should be enough.
esmith
Veteran Member
At the present time it is the Democratic Party pushing this issue. They are looking at the 2014 elections with dismal expectations. They can not run on Obamacare, unemployment, the national debt and a host of other economic problems. They are running on the "war on women", and "income inequality"; that is why I said it is political not economics. Politicians only concern is keeping their job and will say or promote anything that they fell will accomplish this.
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I was pointing out that your point missed the point.
1. Raising the minimum wage shouldn't be expected to fix all the problems. Your expectation, therefore, is a strawman, e.g. "Look! Raising minimum wage to $10 still doesn't make it a living wage. Therefore, it fails!"
2. This is a point that many people seem to miss on a lot of different problem solving solutions. Just because a solution does not fix all the problems does not make it pointless. Just like in evolution, often times incremental changes over time is what you need. Some things just can't be done in one fell swoop. You can't climb to the top without taking a bunch of steps.
You've placed words in my mouth. Bravo.
1. I have not objected to a raise in minimum wage, though, I have pointed out that any positive impacts on the economy may not be IMMEDIATELY realized.
2. I have stated that not all American businesses will benefit in the same way from such increase and may, in fact, raise prices and cut jobs to adjust.
3. Americans would benefit from adjusting their own, individual mindsets to best align with that which they hope to achieve. As I've exemplified, a "living wage" for someone like myself would translate to being far above $26.00. In my city, one could not live off of $12.00-$15.00 as a working wage, unless they supplemented their income in some way or shared their expenses with others in their household.
4. What I question is the unrealistic EXPECTATION that some Americans posess - that you CAN make it on your own and/or raise a family on mininum wage. Such questioning does not negate any positive impact that a raise in the minimum wage may yield. However, I am also not blind to the negative consequences that such a raise will also yield.
Because, this wasn't my argument to begin with. You falsely assumed that I had a problem with a raise in mininum wage, which I do not. My problem is with those who assume that this is going to BETTER their overall financial stability, when there is no way in hell they can meet the demands of their local cost of living via a mininum wage paycheck, whether it be $10.00 or more.
I'm curious as to how we're going to continue fixing the layers of problems that exist in our society, as they do not only fall on the shoulders of the ******* CEO. Capiche?
Oh sure. It's just not possible for a struggling American business to struggle even moreso if forced to pay their employees more?
Spare me the patronization, please. I believe I've stated quite clearly that mininum wage raises won't fix our problems.
If you present it as one step along a path...what's the next step, huh?
It's the same with working out. As we all know, however, that is no good reason not to do it.
Sure. But, if you do lose your job in the process, accept that it's par for the course.
So?
I have no patience for those who therefore think "People are dumb. Therefore, we should allow businesses to take advantage of them." Or "$10 isn't enough for people to live on. Therefore, we should just keep it at $7.
Some people are dumb and do lack skills necessary to do specific jobs. Certain people shouldn't realistically EXPECT to make certain wages, unless they are capable of obtaining the skills and education to propel themselves forward.
I too wouldn't condone the business that chooses not to invest in its employees through betterment programs and education. Investing in your workforce yields greatest benefit for all.
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esmith
Veteran Member
I tend to disagree with you on one point about needing a college degree to get a job. There are many jobs that require technical skill that can not be learned or taught at your colleges or universities. These jobs require vocational education that you find a various "trade schools". Do you need a college education to be a mechanic, plumber, welder, heavy equipment operator, truck driver, nursing/healthcare and so forth. As a matter of fact if you look at the following: Best Technology Jobs | Best Jobs | US News Careers you will see that the majority of them do not require a degree. Another interesting article is: 20 Great Jobs Without a College Degree | CareerCast.com
Are all of the high school graduates that are going on to a college or university really going looking for a future or are they going for other reasons. The enrollment in Colorado is up, now some say it isn't because of the new marijuana laws. But you have to stop and ask are the Colorado schools offering a better education that other states?
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
I don't disagree with you.
But, this doesn't change the fact that there is a marked difference in earning potential from one profession to the next. The mininum wage employee CANNOT achieve the same earning potential as the licensed professional.
I didn't.
But, I will absolutely require a degree if I want to make the sort of money within my field that I want to make to secure my retirement.
It's contingent I think, upon the field that a person pursues as well. We have a shortage in Virginia of thousands of medical professionals, in example. It takes a certain type of person to become a nurse and doctor, granted.
There are also shortages in many fields - licensed plumbers and HVAC workers, in example. There are ALWAYS openings for these jobs. These folks typically make well above mininum wage ($20.00+ per hour) as a starting wage. These are just a few examples.
What's changed is that people have to apply their interests to demand in their communities.
More and more training curriculums now are geared to specific careers, so, as you work towards your degree, you're actually learning the skills that you'll need on the job.
Experience is important, but, some people aren't naturally gifted in certain skills but yet pursue such jobs. Education can be of benefit to the employee, in that it shows the employer that even if such person doesn't have the work experience, they have that degree which comprises a well-rounded curriculum.
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I'm skeptical about this "struggling American business". Profits are way up. And management wages are waaaay up. They are also sitting on a lot of money. Also realize that we aren't really talking about those cute little mom and pop startups. We are talking about McDonalds and Walmart. Yeah, really struggling there.Oh sure. It's just not possible for a struggling American business to struggle even moreso if forced to pay their employees more?
As for businesses who can't afford to pay their employees a reasonable wage, well, I don't see why we the people should be subsidizing a failing business. If whatever they are selling, producing, or offering, is in demand, then maybe some other business is better suited to meet it. And if it's not in demand, well, then it's a crappy business venture.
Lastly, as my Henry Ford quotes noted and Alceste's Canadian study shows, when you pay your employees more money they have more money to spend. And the awesome thing about the poor and middle class is that they basically will spend any increase in wages right back into the economy. Henry Ford realized that his company would be hurt if the average American couldn't afford to purchase his product. That's why raising wages is a good idea: It helps the employee and and the employer.
That's not my job, nor is it my field. But again, just because I may not know doesn't mean that I can't see a positive step when one is suggested.
The ultimate goal needs to be to get our massive, crippling, destructive wealth and income disparity under control. Raising minimum wage to a more reasonable level is an easy step in the right direction. But we need to address low and midlevel wages as well. I think some sort of ratio or salary cap or bonus cap may be necessary if our businesses cannot learn to self regulate.