Ratcheting back a notch or two?

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

Excuse me, but where is the relationship? GWB did not have the prerrogative to refuse to give up presidency, nor to choose his own successor in defiance to the result of the elections.

That he chose not to attempt a coup is very poor evidence that he is not authoritarian or racist.

If he doesn't believe in the principles of our republic then why did he abide by them? Authoritarians don't freely give up power and racists don't appoint African-Americans to important posts in their cabinet.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hi Joe.

If he doesn't believe in the principles of our republic then why did he abide by them? Authoritarians don't freely give up power and racists don't appoint African-Americans to important posts in their cabinet.

Not to say that was the case, but racists may choose to have tokens for PR purposes.

As for giving up power, sorry, but I still don't understand your point. Did he even have a choice other than some sort of coup?

 

[Revoltingest]

Not to say that was the case, but racists may choose to have tokens for PR purposes.

In this case, Bush did not choose Obama, but merely followed due process & left office so that Obama could enter it.

As for giving up power, sorry, but I still don't understand your point. Did he even have a choice other than some sort of coup?

If I may speak for Joe, his point is that many lefties claim that Bush was a Nazi-like authoritarian who would subvert the process to take
excessive power. The fact that he left office in an orderly, lawful & peaceful fashion suggests that the lefties' claims are histrionic.

I don't like Bush or Obama because both would seize more power than I see the USSC allowing, but they are a far cry from Nazis.

 

[LuisDantas]

In this case, Bush did not choose Obama, but merely followed due process & left office so that Obama could enter it.

I agree completely, but I thought Joe might be thinking of Condoleeza Rice or some other member of GWB's staff.

If I may speak for Joe, his point is that many lefties claim that Bush was a Nazi-like authoritarian who would subvert the process to take
excessive power. The fact that he left office in an orderly, lawful & peaceful fashion suggests that the lefties' claims are histrionic.

I don't like Bush or Obama because both would seize more power than I see the USSC allowing, but they are a far cry from Nazis.

I don't necessarily agree. Unca Adolf himself wouldn't have that much power these days.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't necessarily agree. Unca Adolf himself wouldn't have that much power these days.

What does this mean?

 

[LuisDantas]

What does this mean?

Sorry, I should have given some context.

It turns out that I am personally convinced that the Nazi mindset has never been particularly difficult to find, and that AH himself was ultimately a mediocre man in every aspect.

The decisive and tragic aspect of Nazi Germany, IMO, was the social and political context that failed to challenge the madman with anything resembling adequate determination.

So, by my model, Nazis are potentially everywhere, and most of them don't suspect how feeble their own ethics are. Most authoritarians would easily adapt to a Nazi regime.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Luis,

Not to say that was the case, but racists may choose to have tokens for PR purposes.

Good, so you don't believe Bush was a racist.

As for giving up power, sorry, but I still don't understand your point. Did he even have a choice other than some sort of coup?

Revolt made my point. If Bush was a shredder of the Constitution, then it would be odd that the one apsect where he would respect the Constitution is where he has to relinquish the power he so desires.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sorry, I should have given some context.

It turns out that I am personally convinced that the Nazi mindset has never been particularly difficult to find, and that AH himself was ultimately a mediocre man in every aspect.

The decisive and tragic aspect of Nazi Germany, IMO, was the social and political context that failed to challenge the madman with anything resembling adequate determination.

So, by my model, Nazis are potentially everywhere, and most of them don't suspect how feeble their own ethics are. Most authoritarians would easily adapt to a Nazi regime.

That's clear. Unfortunately, the mere mention of Hitlerian leanings of any politician is so polarizing as to render it worse than useless.

 

[Magic Man]

Hi mball,

Google it and you'll find all the evidence you need.

Or you could back up your own statement. I guess that's too much to ask, though, huh?

Why would why? Some people think that Obama is like Hitler and Stalin, some liberals believed that Bush was also like Hitler. Big whoop.

Because it's stupid to compare either of them to Hitler. That's why I would expect someone to care.

 

[Magic Man]

Hi mball,



The media is liberal that is a fact attested to by Bill Clinton.

Whatever helps you continue to be a conservative, I guess.

And I'm not arguing that there is a conspiracy so that is a straw man.

Yes, you are. You're arguing that the media is liberal and that therefore there's a conspiracy to give much more airtime to liberal activists than conservative ones.

 

[Magic Man]

Hi Luis,



If he doesn't believe in the principles of our republic then why did he abide by them?

He didn't. That's why so many people had a problem with him.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're arguing that the media is liberal and that therefore there's a conspiracy to give much more airtime to liberal activists than conservative ones.

"Therefore there's a conspiracy..." doesn't logically follow. I see a left leaning bias in the news, but I don't see a conspiracy. I'd say it's a natural
result of people in the media being generally left of center, for whatever reason that is. It's human nature that when we report on people with
whom we side, we give better coverage. Conversely, when we dislike someone, our reporting is more negative.

Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist / UCLA Newsroom
Media Bias Basics

Silly analogy time: A conspiracy is the work of an unseen designer. Intelligent design is the same. Yet I see evolution as a stochastic process which
unfolds naturally. Similarly, media bias is an emergent property of the system, without anyone directing it. (I'm not saying conspiracy is impossible,
only that it isn't a useful explanation.)

Joe: And I'm not arguing that there is a conspiracy so that is a straw man.
Mball: Yes, you are.

You keep arguing that people believe things they don't believe. I don't think you understand people as well as you believe you do.
Are you going to tell me that I now believe in the conspiracy?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

While comparing an American politician to Hitler or Stalin is a blatant use of hyperbole, there are occasions when someone embraces a position that actually merits the comparison.

I can see someone trying to compare Obama's fiscal policies to socialism, but that doesn't mean he would implement policies to enact the mass murder of 20 million of his countrymen to ensure his power.

Likewise, I understand comparing Bush's expansion of the power of the executive branch to Hitler's move to consolidate the power in Germany in the 30's. Again, that doesn't mean that Bush wanted to eradicate the Jewish race.

The problem arises when the people making the comparisons overstate the issue, in an attempt to conflate the politician with the mass murderer.

Rhetoric and hyperbole have their place, but it isn't conducive to a good debate about political issues.

 

[Engyo]

Rhetoric and hyperbole have their place, but it isn't conducive to a good debate about political issues.

Good debate means that participants are in it for the ideas, and not just to win at any cost.

 

[LuisDantas]

Good, so you don't believe Bush was a racist.

I wouldn't go quite that far. In fact, I wouldn't bet either way. There is not enough info available for me to go on.

Revolt made my point. If Bush was a shredder of the Constitution, then it would be odd that the one aspect where he would respect the Constitution is where he has to relinquish the power he so desires.

I fail to see how or why. There are few politicians that I respect less than GWB and while I have not specifically checked how much respect he had for the US Constitution, I doubt it was much.

All of that is quite besides the point that even an hypothetical constitution-hater would have a very hard time staging a coup in the US. It is not a matter of being respectful as much as of lacking the means.

 

[LuisDantas]

The media is liberal that is a fact attested to by Bill Clinton.

How so?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Good debate means that participants are in it for the ideas, and not just to win at any cost.

Exactly.

Unfortunately, in America (and probably around the world), the desire to obtain and retain power takes precedence over the exchange of ideas for the common good.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

The media is liberal that is a fact attested to by Bill Clinton.

How so?

The irony is that a staunch Republican will deride Clinton as a pathological liar, but when he makes a statement that serves their purpose, he magically transforms into a bastion of truth and an authority on media bias.

Like Luis, I'd like to see some evidence of Clinton making the claim. If you can produce that, then I'd like to see some credentials that demonstrate that Clinton has studied the issue.

 

[Revoltingest]

The irony is that a staunch Republican will deride Clinton as a pathological liar, but when he makes a statement that serves their purpose, he magically transforms into a bastion of truth and an authority on media bias.

I read Joe's statement differently. Pathological Pinocchio though he is, were Bill Clinton to have said there is a liberal bias in the media,
it would not be the kind of lie he would tell. He would have some credibility because, 1) The statement would be against his interest.
2) He is by far more savvy about media than most. It's moot anyway, since I already posted better sources to show media bias.

 

[Magic Man]

Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist / UCLA Newsroom
Media Bias Basics

Well, those were certainly a waste of time.