Reading the Bible again and have some questions

[outlawState]

years ago I studied Spanish.....never really caught on.......but....

sin.....means ......without

According to Oxford English Dictionary

Sin comes from

Old English synn (noun), syngian (verb); probably related to Latin sons, sont- ‘guilty’.

we are born without God
we could live our lives without Hm
and die without Him

born in sin
live in sin
die that way

some say sin can only be relieved by God Himself

well....if living without God IS sin
then it's true
only His Presence can take it away

I don't think we are born "without God," It is God who "breathed life into Adam." The number of days every person lives is ordained by God.
I agree that justification could only come by God.

 

[Thief]

According to Oxford English Dictionary

Sin comes from

Old English synn (noun), syngian (verb); probably related to Latin sons, sont- ‘guilty’.


I don't think we are born "without God," It is God who "breathed life into Adam." The number of days every person lives is ordained by God.
I agree that justification could only come by God.

I don't equate the 'breath of God'.....to that of His Presence

(at best)
at birth we are delivered into the arms of someone who cares

this life is like finding your way home

and I don't think we are born guilty

 

[metis]

For the sake of argument I could accept that true polytheism had begun to develop by the time that Adam was placed in the garden of Eden, but it doesn't matter one way or the other vis-a-vis the bible.

I don't take the Fall accounts literally but as more likely an allegorical narrative fashioned by a Jewish reworking of a much larger Babylonian epic. All cultures pretty much do this, and it was a way of showing that the original narrative (Babylonian in this case) was wrong and the Jewish reworking of it is the one that's correct.

Now I see where our paradigm differs that led to our disconnect.

 

[outlawState]

I don't equate the 'breath of God'.....to that of His Presence

(at best)
at birth we are delivered into the arms of someone who cares

The "presence of God" is of course appropriated by faith. "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt 28;20.

That is different from being called up to heaven, which is a special treat reserved for the chosen. But all men live and exist in the presence of God, for sure, whether we appropriate his presence by faith or not.

this life is like finding your way home

and I don't think we are born guilty

You are not born guilty but you definitely become guilty. That much is unavoidable.

 

[outlawState]

I don't take the Fall accounts literally but as more likely an allegorical narrative fashioned by a Jewish reworking of a much larger Babylonian epic. All cultures pretty much do this, and it was a way of showing that the original narrative (Babylonian in this case) was wrong and the Jewish reworking of it is the one that's correct.

At the very least, it relates the tale that even monotheists will sin, left to their own devices and placed in a paradise. It also provides a timeframe for dating the advent of monotheism to the Sumerian period. But we also have to take note of religion undergoing major transformations during this period (Noah, Tower of Babel etc). I have to say I am not an expert on this at all. Abram came from Ur, an important Sumerian city-state, which is clearly historical.

 

[Thief]

The "presence of God" is of course appropriated by faith. "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt 28;20.

That is different from being called up to heaven, which is a special treat reserved for the chosen. But all men live and exist in the presence of God, for sure, whether we appropriate his presence by faith or not.


You are not born guilty but you definitely become guilty. That much is unavoidable.

equivalent to being a sinner?

and then of course...the Carpenter's fate....
He would be counted among transgressors

 

[metis]

At the very least, it relates the tale that even monotheists will sin, left to their own devices and placed in a paradise. It also provides a timeframe for dating the advent of monotheism to the Sumerian period. But we also have to take note of religion undergoing major transformations during this period (Noah, Tower of Babel etc). I have to say I am not an expert on this at all. Abram came from Ur, an important Sumerian city-state, which is clearly historical.

The Sumerians were polytheists, and I covered them in two lectures, including using pictures of artifacts to demonstrate their deities in my intro to anthro course.

According to Genesis, Abraham was a polytheist until his conversion to become a believer in "the God of Abraham". It's virtually impossible for us today to authenticate the story but we definitely know that Ur existed.

 

[outlawState]

equivalent to being a sinner?

and then of course...the Carpenter's fate....
He would be counted among transgressors

What's equivalence got to do with it? One sin = sinner.

 

[outlawState]

The Sumerians were polytheists, and I covered them in two lectures, including using pictures of artifacts to demonstrate their deities in my intro to anthro course.

According to Genesis, Abraham was a polytheist until his conversion to become a believer in "the God of Abraham". It's virtually impossible for us today to authenticate the story but we definitely know that Ur existed.

The Sumerian period lasted from circa 5500BC to circa 2000BC. That is an incredibly long period by any standard. To describe them as "polytheists" would be true, as to the city state religion, but was it an exclusive religion, or were there other religions too? I think only the bible will us that.

You just can't identify every religion in a place from the national religion. What is the religion of the USA? Deism one might say, if going by government, but it could not exclude many others. I should think that would apply to Sumer too.

 

[metis]

The Sumerian period lasted from circa 5500BC to circa 2000BC. That is an incredibly long period by any standard. To describe them as "polytheists" would be true, as to the city state religion, but was it an exclusive religion, or were there other religions too? I think only the bible will us that.

You just can't identify every religion in a place from the national religion. What is the religion of the USA? Deism one might say, if going by government, but it could not exclude many others. I should think that would apply to Sumer too.

Usually within most polytheistic societies that we know of, there tends to be regional favorites when it comes to deities. Sumer was not likely large enough or populated enough to have different religions, and since they had writing we do know quite a bit of what they believed in, especially in the latter periods.

Also, religions tend to evolve, so we don't expect the latter years to be exactly like the earlier years. Frankly, I don't know or recall when their literate period started.

 

[Thief]

What's equivalence got to do with it? One sin = sinner.

does it apply to all....?
Carpenter included?

 

[outlawState]

does it apply to all....?
Carpenter included?

Of course

 

[Dantedeven]

Forth from dust everything was brought forth by God, and into that same dust everything shall return by God.
Except the light, the light shall not return to dust and neither will God turn into dust, and maybe the spirit too, but i don't know that for certain.
But yeah, the earth was nonexistant without labor, thus empty, and the formation of earth was fierce, and since there was no earth yet, the abyss was indeed very dark. And everyone says that the sun was before the earth was, but they actually mean that the sun was before the earth's formation was.

 

[Thief]

Of course

so the Carpenter was born a sinner?

not many believe that

 

[nPeace]

I didn't want to post this outside of the DIR, lest there be comments that lead to a debate. I'm not looking to debate, I'm looking to see what someone who is a true follower of the Bible believes. And why you believe it.

Okay, so I'm reading a study Bible, English Standard Version, and so far I like it a lot. It explains things in long footnote form, that helps me to better understand the depiction of some of these Bible passages.I'm reading it all with an open mind.

So, I'm fascinated right now by how in Genesis, in the very beginning it states ''the earth was without form and void.'' In the footnote, it specifically states it plainly that there really would be no way for Moses (who is ascribed to as it relates to Genesis) to know this. I'd have to agree, just taking it for face value.

So, in the footnotes, the Bible scholars responsible for this study guide, go on to say that there were polytheist civilizations that competed with the Hebrew God. Can someone explain that part to me, in better detail, as you understand it?

I look forward to a good discussion, and like I said, I'm reading this with an open mind.

I'm not sure what led the translators to this conclusion.
From my reading of various scriptures, they seem to help us understand how Moses could have gotten his information.
2 Peter 1:21

. . .men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is inspired of God...

There are a number of text that seem to show this. For example, the book of Job - the meeting of the sons of God, in heaven; the rebellious angels leaving their place to take women from the earth...

What comment do the translators make in their footnotes, on how Job knew of these and other things?

 

[Earthling]

The planet was formless in that there was no land. It was a water planet. Later, the waters were split, half taken to form a canopy of water vapor around the earth, which was later used for the flood. For further explanation on the first chapter of Genesis, go to Genesis Chapter 1

 

[jhwatts]

To understand Genesis a person should understand how the writer placed details about events in the text. Its not meant to always be read verse to verse. For example. Go to Genesis 10: (1-10). The detail for this event occurs later at Genesis 11: (1-9).

It was not uncommon for the author to mention an event and describe its content later in another chapter. Knowing this we can now, go back to Genesis 1:1 and we see the detail belonging to Genesis 1:1 begins occurs later in Genesis 2:4 and goes through Genesis 4:26. Many things happened during this time. The fall of man and Lucifer, etc. The earth was damaged and flooded, etc. We see the reconstruction beginning in 1:2. This why this Adam was told to replenish the earth in Genesis 1:27. The first creation was destroyed. This goes on and on. This why the genealogy in Genesis 4 has no ages or time associated with them. They had open access to the tree of life. The genealogies in Genesis 5 didn't and so they now age. To view the creation of the world go to Job 38. See Genesis 2:5 and Job 38:26. You will similar language in Job and the first creation. Notice through out Job, Job and his so called friends all admit to being made from the clay or earth. The form and void was due to things that transpired early on in earths past.