"Real Men" and "Real Women"

[Sunstone]

Do you find the concept a "real man" or a "real woman" useful? If so, how is it useful? And what do you yourself mean by a "real man"? A "real woman?"

 

[Buddha Dharma]

New Do you find the concept a "real man" or a "real woman" useful? If so, how is it useful? And what do you yourself mean by a "real man"? A "real woman?"

No I don't find it useful, or helpful in unifying society toward anything good. I find it absolutely archaic, limiting, and divisive. Humans need to stop pretending we know more than we do about things like gender, and so forth. Nature usually defies our prejudices.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you find the concept a "real man" or a "real woman" useful? If so, how is it useful? And what do you yourself mean by a "real man"? A "real woman?"

It's something I was raised on. Not only is it not useful, it's harmful, imho.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't find it useful at all.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Do you find the concept a "real man" or a "real woman" useful? If so, how is it useful? And what do you yourself mean by a "real man"? A "real woman?"

No. In fact it gets irritable when some women try to define manhood even though they have a vagina and are single parents. As a man and from my experiences I feel sometimes women think growing up with a conservative background is the pure definition of "manhood" when in fact how one grows up is entirely dependent upon the environment, and how that environment assisted their maturity. I sincerely wish women would stop doing this because these are arbitrary associations based on what they perceive as beneficial to them. For example, most women I've enconterd believe men ought to be the "bread winners" but most women that think like this either live in the Midwest or south where housing costs are relatively cheaper as opposed to New York or California where even $1000 per month can afford you a basic unfurnished room. For me a woman, is mature, compassionate, loyal, autonomous, intelligent, goal-oriented, sexy, considerate, spiritual (but not overbearing), who wants to have children.....I task @Sakeenah I need you to find this for me ASAP

 

[Frater Sisyphus]

It's usually used as a pejorative, from my understanding.

Usually around moral issues/social.


I've even seen it used in advertisement before "REAL men don't abuse their families" or "REAL men don't drive home drunk"

I've never understood how it equated to "real" or "fake" personally

 

[crossfire]

Do you find the concept a "real man" or a "real woman" useful? If so, how is it useful? And what do you yourself mean by a "real man"? A "real woman?"

I think using the term "a lack of masculine or feminine persona" is more useful. Your mileage may vary.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No. In fact it gets irritable when some women try to define manhood even though they have a vagina and are single parents. As a man and from my experiences I feel sometimes women think growing up with a conservative background is the pure definition of "manhood" when in fact how one grows up is entirely dependent upon the environment, and how that environment assisted their maturity. I sincerely wish women would stop doing this because these are arbitrary associations based on what they perceive as beneficial to them. For example, most women I've enconterd believe men ought to be the "bread winners" but most women that think like this either live in the Midwest or south where housing costs are relatively cheaper as opposed to New York or California where even $1000 per month can afford you a basic unfurnished room. For me a woman, is mature, compassionate, loyal, autonomous, intelligent, goal-oriented, sexy, considerate, spiritual (but not overbearing), who wants to have children.....I task @Sakeenah I need you to find this for me ASAP

Phht. That's easy enough to find. But sorry, I married her...

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Phht. That's easy enough to find. But sorry, I married her...

Actually it's not, and good for you....

 

[Terese]

No. Sometimes trying to be a real man or woman ends up severely limiting one's freedom of choice.

 

[Enoch07]

So many Betas. So little time.

 

[Shad]

Do you find the concept a "real man" or a "real woman" useful? If so, how is it useful? And what do you yourself mean by a "real man"? A "real woman?"

It is useless as it is ambiguous and completely subjective changing for arbitrary reasons and at a whim.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Independent of their use in stereotype, I view them as the two ends of the gender (or sex) spectrum. Whether one views them as "useful" or "harmful" depending on the trends of the day is irrelevant; they are.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The idea that any one man or woman that doesn't adhere to one set of criterion is 'fake' is, to me, silly nonsense.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So many Betas. So little time.

There's not even alpha and beta wolves as was previously thought, let alone alpha and beta men and women. There's just aholes who think they need to be more aggressive and controlling to be 'superior.'

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Where has it been found that there aren't really "alphas" of animal societies?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Where has it been found that there aren't really "alphas" of animal societies?

The term Alpha and beta as it relates to social hierarchy in humans stems from wolves. But the determination that there were Alpha and beta wolves came from one single study performed on wolves in captivity. The scientist who did the study did a follow-up study on wild wolves and found that they didn't behave according to any sort of hierarchy, just family groups. He tried to get his original work retracted but by then the term had become ingrained in cultural mindset.

Brief article on it: There's no such thing as an alpha male

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

His revision of his own studies hasn't seemed to toppled the concept, however, and not because of it being ingrained in cultural mindset. I was able to find observations of a family pack - related wolves - that did exhibit the "alpha" behavior and status.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

His revision of his own studies hasn't seemed to toppled the concept, however, and not because of it being ingrained in cultural mindset. I was able to find observations of a family pack - related wolves - that did exhibit the "alpha" behavior and status.

Couple things about this: this is a wolf reserve with captive bred and released wolves, the same sort that was the focus of the mistaken belief of alphas in the first place.
These are also not researchers, they're just running a reserve. I've seen establishments who have lemmings still repeat the falsehood of the lemmings over the cliff.

Here's some more
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Graduate Student/Post-doctoral Fellows Openings - L. David Mech

This article is also really good, because it talks about the difference between social dominance as a concept and the alpha beta myth. Saying that social dominance is not a strict hierarchy but fluid, situational, and dependent on a number of factors that aren't 'strong or 'assertive' or other wolf stereotypes.
Social Dominance Is Not a Myth: Wolves, Dogs and Other Animals

 

[Enoch07]

There's not even alpha and beta wolves as was previously thought, let alone alpha and beta men and women. There's just aholes who think they need to be more aggressive and controlling to be 'superior.'

Whatever helps people who worry about such trivial things sleep at night.