Reality as mental modification: No objective reality

[Surya Deva]

It is virtually unanimously agreed that the quantum world is fuzzy, unpredictable, not clearly defined(until we measure it) this is in fact cited clearly in the article above:

THE quantum world defies the rules of ordinary logic. Particles routinely occupy two or more places at the same time and don't even have well-defined properties until they are measured. It's all strange, yet true - quantum theory is the most accurate scientific theory ever tested and its mathematics is perfectly suited to the weirdness of the atomic world.​

unarguably, objective

and subjectivity are not the same thing

I think there is where our problems in misunderstanding are stemming from. I am not using these terms subjective and objective(except for illustration purposes) because they are artificial. Please define clearly what is subjective and what is objective.

 

[apophenia]

Surya Deva,

Does it make any difference if the world is material or mental ?

What changes ?

What do you hope will be the outcome of your enquiry ?

I neither agree nor disagree with your position BTW, so don't regard this post as a challenge. I am curious as to what you think the implications of your ideas are.

If reality is indeed entirely mental, and after immeasurable time (or the absence of it), this is the reality we perceive, do you think some fundamental change will occur by thinking about it differently ?

Is there a desirable change which you think can be made to the cosmic situation, whatever it is ?

 

[Surya Deva]

Very good questions apophenia.

The Indian philosophical tradition which has attempted to prove that the world is made out of mind-stuff has a very practical and spiritual purpose to this endeavor, which I cited in the OP by referencing the Yoga Sutras, to reveal the essential reality unconditioned and free of the mental modifications. This essential reality is profoundly spiritual, life transforming, ineffable and infinite bliss and enlightening. Hence connecting to this reality has been the aim of the Indian philosophical tradition. All argumentation and metaphysical philosophizing has been towards this end only.

If we can prove this reality is mental modifications and humanity actually accept there is a fundamental reality free of these mental modifications that we can all connect to via meditation we can bring a massive revolution of consciousness in humans. Imagine an entire civilization of buddhas, sages, risis, saints. Even if everybody does not get enlightened, it would at least to a much more spiritual attitude among humans, tolerance, compassion, civic responsibility, unity and ecological and cosmic worldview.

The material worldview has lead to the opposite. We believe we are in a neutral, cold, mechanic universe existing outside of ourselves. We are but biological machines with no purpose other than survival or perhaps reproduction. The neutrality of science is what has lead to what many 20th century philosophers regarded as scientific holocausts, world wars and environmental degradation. As our entire identity is defined in modern times as material consumer of goods and our entire modus operandi of society is production and consumption of goods.

There are many other benefits that will come from accepting reality is mind:

1) Cosmic worldview: We will begin to see ourselves as not just individuals within a vast cold, mechnical and dead universe, but as participants in a vast and infinite mind-field of infinite possibilities that we can freely enter via meditation. Rest-assured knowing that our physical death will not bring an end to our existence.

2) Infinite potential: We will begin to see ourselves as not just biological machines or material beings prey to natural forces, but as spiritual beings capable of infinite potential and capability. For instance knowing that thought is the basic building block of reality, will lead to more responsible thinking and the ability for self-healing and rejuvenation by tapping our powers of intention.

3) Purpose: We will know and begin to realize that life is not just about mindless consumption or gratification of ones biological needs, that we have a purpose in our life, to spiritual develop, to realize our highest potentials in life. Thus from the very get set go in life there will be a sense of purpose. Indeed, one of the predicates of the idealist worldview in the Indian tradition is the entailment of reincarnation and karma. Based on our karma we enter into this waking reality. Accepting this as unanimous fact we will be able to help people to best develop in this life(especially by understanding how karma works)

There are many other benefits that will come from accepting such a worldview, fields like NDE and OBE research and parapsychology would be legitimized and be given due funding and importance. This would help us expand our understanding of human potential and develop better technologies to unlock human potential.

In a nutshell it would lead to a spiritual revolution of humanity, a revolution so radical and momentous, it would make previous revolutions look tame. This is why it is important for a philosopher like me to prove that reality really is a mind-field and prove psychic powers, reincarnation etc are reality(insofar as our empirical existence)

 

[Surya Deva]

Something personal I want to share as an extension to the previous post, and as we are speaking informally, I think it is permissible: I have often thought, from as young as a child, I have been born on the wrong planet. I have never really related to anybody here. Even as a child I could not relate to my peers playing in the playground and being all boisterous. I just preferred to sit by myself and contemplate. So I never really fit in, and was a loner for most of my childhood and got bullied at school. At home, it was not great either, domestic violence took place everyday, so I use to just stay in my room and try to block it all out. I really had no idea what to do among all this madness, what to pursue, how to relate to the world(and to be honest, even to this very day I find it difficult to relate to the world) I just felt I had landed in the wrong place. Some questions I asked

1. Why are people so hurtful to one another? How can another human being intentionally go out of their way to hurt another person?
2. Why do people not care about each other?
3. What is with all this superstition and madness?
4. Why are we so hopelessly divided, why cant we be united as an entire people?
5. Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going?

I would often to say to myself that I wish in my next life I am born on a more enlightened planet(not Earth) But now I think that my aim is to be born on this planet and enlighten this planet. If I was born on a more enlightened planet I would not have had to go through such a difficult childhood, I would not have been so clueless about what my purpose was and I would have felt a sense of community and belonging with others.

Hence to add to what I already said. This is why I think it is necessary to overturn this materialist paradigm and establish this idealist/spiritual paradigm, so people like me can be born on this planet and not regret being born here. Who can have a clear sense of direction in life from the word go. Who can feel cared for and feel like they belong.

 

[George-ananda]

But now I think that my aim is to be born on this planet and enlighten this planet.

I sense that too. I had my 'controlled' amount of beer tonight at my neighborhood bar and it's 2AM now so I won't get too syrupy or say much. But you seem a RARE ONE to me. I am far from a genius but I feel I can sense genius.

No reply needed.

 

[idav]

1. Why are people so hurtful to one another? How can another human being intentionally go out of their way to hurt another person?

Because people see themselves as individuals but we are one. Monism helps with that.

2. Why do people not care about each other?

See above. Love goes beyond chemicals when people decide to bring down the barriers.

3. What is with all this superstition and madness?

I agree. People are more woried about some unsubstantiated realm and afterlife rather than the life we are in right now.

4. Why are we so hopelessly divided, why cant we be united as an entire people?

Again, people should think more about monism.

5. Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going?

We are all eternal and headed to eternity.

Hence to add to what I already said. This is why I think it is necessary to overturn this materialist paradigm and establish this idealist/spiritual paradigm, so people like me can be born on this planet and not regret being born here. Who can have a clear sense of direction in life from the word go. Who can feel cared for and feel like they belong.

I agree but with the opposite philosophy. This life has more direction when people find that they are the ones in control. Any spiritual tools you use come from your own mind as we create are own realities. Ideas make real physical changes within the limits of what nature allows.

A few questions to delve into it a bit more. Is AA more beneficial when a person admits they have no control except in some spiritual sense? Is it more dangerous to think that the power to overcome comes from within rather from some outside source? If one is truly able to overcome does the source really matter?

 

[1137]

Well, while I think there is objective reality, I now have to admit I cannot know that. Just as I cannot know I am not a brain in a vat. I have faith that it exist though, but honestly I do not know. I'm moving closer to the Eastern side haha. The thing is, with this belief shaking perspective change, I do not see the relevance any longer.

 

[George-ananda]

The thing is, with this belief shaking perspective change, I do not see the relevance any longer.

Please clarify and elaborate this sentence. Curious minds out here...

 

[PolyHedral]

It is virtually unanimously agreed that the quantum world is fuzzy, unpredictable, not clearly defined(until we measure it) this is in fact cited clearly in the article above:

THE quantum world defies the rules of ordinary logic. Particles routinely occupy two or more places at the same time and don't even have well-defined properties until they are measured. It's all strange, yet true - quantum theory is the most accurate scientific theory ever tested and its mathematics is perfectly suited to the weirdness of the atomic world.​

Wavicles (because they are not particles ) don't "occupy" any position at all - that's not how they work, as the maths tells us.

The quantum world is, as mentioned, absolutely predictable and clearly defined. The issue is that the equations of QM describe the layer under the reality we perceive, and how that translates into the reality of discrete objects and near-determinism we perceive hasn't been philosophically explained yet. However, there is no question that the equations are accurate, and are useful as a model of reality.

I think there is where our problems in misunderstanding are stemming from. I am not using these terms subjective and objective(except for illustration purposes) because they are artificial. Please define clearly what is subjective and what is objective.

A subjective statement is one which depends on someone's moods, opinions or feelings, etc. An objective one is the opposite, and usually derived from physical measurement or pure logical reasoning.

 

[1137]

Please clarify and elaborate this sentence. Curious minds out here...

There is no way to know whether or not I am, in fact, a brain in a vat. But it is irrelevant. I have no choice but to percieve this as reality, and others come to the same conclusions about laws, so why's it matter if it is "real"? Whether this is objective reality and we all share it, I am a brain in a vat and can never experience any other "objective" reality, I am a dreaming butterfly who can not tell the difference between "objective" realties, whatever, I , as in the person typing this post, am bound to this reality and may as well understand it. It may be unlikely that I am a dreaming butterfly or a brain in a vat, but there is no possible way to know that with certainty, so why bother? Just like nothing implies God exists but we cannot know for sure.

I'm not suggesting there is no objective reality, just that I cannot know what is objective reality with absolute certainty.