Reality is subjective / comes from the mind? Really?

[1137]

Not a cop out. I just wanted to see how you'd react to the idea - I'm disappointed.

Let me be more direct: what do you think of communal reality?

C'mon, I remember the video in psych 101 where the supposed magician was on some tonight show, and they did not let him use his own props. His excuse for not being able to melt the spoon with his fingers was that the environment was too skeptical.

Now, what do you mean by communal reality?

 

[Me Myself]

Haha such common cop-outs

Which cop outs? I am merely explaining you that "It is impossible that everything is subjective experience" is not a falsifiable claim, hence it cannot be a scientific affirmation at all.

I am not saying I can evidence it is, I am merely saying the possibility cannot be fully denied.

 

[1137]

Which cop outs? I am merely explaining you that "It is impossible that everything is subjective experience" is not a falsifiable claim, hence it cannot be a scientific affirmation at all.

I am not saying I can evidence it is, I am merely saying the possibility cannot be fully denied.

Fair enough.

 

[Storm]

C'mon, I remember the video in psych 101 where the supposed magician was on some tonight show, and they did not let him use his own props. His excuse for not being able to melt the spoon with his fingers was that the environment was too skeptical.

Oh. I never saw that. That's really funny in a pathetic way... (FTR, I don't actually believe in levitation, etc.)

Now, what do you mean by communal reality?

The notion that our subjective realities actually contribute to the unknowable objective one. I'm getting tired and can't really go into detail without it coming out gibberish, so I'll let JMS say it for me: "Our thoughts form the universe - they always matter."

 

[1137]

Oh. I never saw that. That's really funny in a pathetic way... (FTR, I don't actually believe in levitation, etc.)


The notion that our subjective realities actually contribute to the unknowable objective one. I'm getting tired and can't really go into detail without it coming out gibberish, so I'll let JMS say it for me: "Our thoughts form the universe - they always matter."

I have to run, let me respond tomorrow.

 

[Surya Deva]

I did not realize the extent of your beliefs. I can't believe I have been debating with someone who believes in telekinesis, teleportation , telepathy, etc.

Argument from incredulity.

In fact your statement is offensive to many people who believe in psychic powers. Entire religions Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism believe in psychic powers(siddhis) Many scientists and perfectly sensible rationalists believe in psychic powers.

You should read a book called, "Noetic Sciences" by Dean Radin, who is a highly educated scientist and physicist and has worked for many prestigious scientific institutes, he shows in his book the body of research done into psychic/psi over the last 100 years.

 

[1137]

Argument from incredulity.

In fact your statement is offensive to many people who believe in psychic powers. Entire religions Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism believe in psychic powers(siddhis) Many scientists and perfectly sensible rationalists believe in psychic powers.

You read read a book called, "Noetic Sciences" by Dean Radin, who is a highly educated scientist and physicist and has worked for many prestigious scientific institutes, he shows in his book the body of research done into psychic/psi over the last 100 years.

Sweet. I look foward to the links on the scientific experiments on these topics!

 

[Me Myself]

Fair enough.

I don´t know what to say... I think I have been trying to explain this to you for long... now I am actually thinking I may be dreaming

Am I losing trail of some sarcasm here? <_< >_>

 

[Straw Dog]

If some psychic phenomenon does occur, then it still may fit within a physicalist framework. Although I tend to be skeptical, the universe is stranger than we originally presumed after all. I don't really know what's going on in all these extra dimensions physicists are talking about. It's beyond my comprehension.

My only personal experience relating to psychic phenomenon is telepathic dreaming. I have a friend that I've shared many dreams with. I know it may sound absurd, but I can't figure out any better way of describing it. It could just be coincidence if it didn't occur as many times as it did and if we weren't both capable of relating specific details regarding the dreamscape and our exact conversations within it. I suppose this is a case in which I cannot provide empirical evidence to support it and yet, for the life of me, the experiences were so vivid that I cannot deny them occurring, especially since my friend seems to validate them. I'll probably never really understand how it's possible.

 

[crossfire]

1. There is no objective reality
2. So, all "reality" is subjective / stems from the mind
3. All things on earth (including inanimate objects) are effected by gravity
4. Based on 1 & 2, gravity is created subjectively by each individual mind
5. So, someone should be able to change their perception and not be bound by gravity
6. 5 is impossible
Therefore, 1 & 2 are false.

It's an interactive universe, imo.

 

[Me Myself]

If some psychic phenomenon does occur, then it still may fit within a physicalist framework. Although I tend to be skeptical, the universe is stranger than we originally presumed after all. I don't really know what's going on in all these extra dimensions physicists are talking about. It's beyond my comprehension.

My only personal experience relating to psychic phenomenon is telepathic dreaming. I have a friend that I've shared many dreams with. I know it may sound absurd, but I can't figure out any better way of describing it. It could just be coincidence if it didn't occur as many times as it did and if we weren't both capable of relating specific details regarding the dreamscape and our exact conversations within it. I suppose this is a case in which I cannot provide empirical evidence to support it and yet, for the life of me, the experiences were so vivid that I cannot deny them occurring, especially since my friend seems to validate them. I'll probably never really understand how it's possible.

You are not alone

 

[Surya Deva]

My only personal experience relating to psychic phenomenon is telepathic dreaming. I have a friend that I've shared many dreams with. I know it may sound absurd, but I can't figure out any better way of describing it. It could just be coincidence if it didn't occur as many times as it did and if we weren't both capable of relating specific details regarding the dreamscape and our exact conversations within it. I suppose this is a case in which I cannot provide empirical evidence to support it and yet, for the life of me, the experiences were so vivid that I cannot deny them occurring, especially since my friend seems to validate them. I'll probably never really understand how it's possible.

Yes, this is relatively a common experience. On Lucid dreaming and OBE/astral projection forums online members routinely do experiments where they try to meet each other in dreams or even at specific locations. In scientific research on OBES experiments have been done where the OBEr is told to see a remote target. In some of these experiments the subtle body of the OBER has been detected.

My belief in psychic phenomena is motivated by two things which lead to absolute conviction

1) I had many psychic experiences of various kinds that for me it is fact and not belief
2) The philosophy of Advaita I subscribe to predicates the existence of psychic phenomena(such as lucid dreaming and interacting with others in dreams) and as the philosophy is 100% logical and rigorously proves its every assertion it is solid logical proof for me.

 

[Straw Dog]

My belief in psychic phenomena is motivated by two things which lead to absolute conviction

1) I had many psychic experiences of various kinds that for me it is fact and not belief
2) The philosophy of Advaita I subscribe to predicates the existence of psychic phenomena(such as lucid dreaming and interacting with others in dreams) and as the philosophy is 100% logical and rigorously proves its every assertion it is solid logical proof for me.

Yeah, I'm definitely more open to the possibility of some psychic phenomenon, but I'm hesitant to put everything from shared dreaming to levitation in the same category. I've seen too many magicians haha.

At any rate, how can any philosophy be completely logical without error? It seems everything contains some degree of deficiency.

 

[Surya Deva]

t any rate, how can any philosophy be completely logical without error? It seems everything contains some degree of deficiency.

In order for there to be a complete system of knowledge it must account for our entire empirical reality and how that empirical reality is known. The fundamental premise of the system must be proven itself. Advaita does this with the fundamental premise of consciousness(Brahman) and that cannot be denied there is no reality to be known by its denial and without it no experience would be possible. From the fundamental premise Advaita is able to derive all its tenets. It is a rigorous system of metaphysics, hence why the great logician Whitehead called it the most impressive system of metaphysics the human mind has ever conceived.

In terms of this discussion one of the fundamental tenets which is also the doctrine of Advaita is Maya. That is, the universe is a holographic projection which spans across a continuum of consciousness states deep sleep(causal) dream(subtle) and waking(gross) Hence why it is possible for you to to interact in dream with with another dreamer, because they are taking place in the subtle dimension or the mental plane. This mental plane is more fundamental than the physical plane and necessarily precedes the physical plane.

Levitation, teleportation etc take place due to pranic forces which make up the subtle dimension or mental plane. In the physical plane there is separation between you and another body, if your body is in America and their body is in China, you cannot interact with one another. However, in the mental plane due to pranic networks that connect every point in space, you can indeed interact with one another. Likewise, the pranic forces can be used for various purposes such as levitation by channeling the upwards-flowing pranic force or teleportation by demateralizing your body into the akasha(quantum) and travelling through the pranic channels and rematerializing at another point,in exactly the same way electrons quantum tunnel by converting into waves and then back into particles.

The network of pranic channels is crucial to how any psychic power works(also crucial to how yogic techniques work)

 

[methylatedghosts]

Do you know of lucid dreaming? If you recognize you are in a dream you can control it.
Anyways, we are not talking about dreams.

Who's to say that a dream isn't just another, equally valid reality?

 

[BSM1]

The Buddha defied gravity?

So did Yeshua according to Scriptures. They both did it for the same reason. They were illustrating that reality was illusional and subjective and therefore could be transcended. It also scared the crap out of non-believers.

 

[idav]

If people can levitate, why are there no controlled scientific experiments with these magical yogis doing so?

They practice of the ability of control of body and mind.

70 years without eating? 'Starving yogi' says it's true - The Body Odd

If a yogi were going to actually seemingly defy classical physics it would probably be with quantum physics.

 

[1137]

Levitation, teleportation etc take place due to pranic forces which make up the subtle dimension or mental plane. In the physical plane there is separation between you and another body, if your body is in America and their body is in China, you cannot interact with one another. However, in the mental plane due to pranic networks that connect every point in space, you can indeed interact with one another. Likewise, the pranic forces can be used for various purposes such as levitation by channeling the upwards-flowing pranic force or teleportation by demateralizing your body into the akasha(quantum) and travelling through the pranic channels and rematerializing at another point,in exactly the same way electrons quantum tunnel by converting into waves and then back into particles.

The network of pranic channels is crucial to how any psychic power works(also crucial to how yogic techniques work)

Ah, more contradictions from the logic master. You already told me that there are not different levels and such, but now you are claiming there are different planes, such as the mental plane and subtle dimension. Can you please stop contradicting yourself? I find it very unsettling.

The China thing, are you saying that if I wanted to telepathically talk to someone in China I could go through other minds to transfer the message? Good thing you are rooted in scientific fact...

Theoretically this is all fine and dandy, but nobody is going to be able to break down to quantum levels and teleport themselves. That is not at all possible, as we exist at the atomic level, not the quantum level. Once again, I need you to decide if the quantum level is different or decide if there is no difference between these non-existent levels, I need you to stop contradicting yourself.

So did Yeshua according to Scriptures. They both did it for the same reason. They were illustrating that reality was illusional and subjective and therefore could be transcended. It also scared the crap out of non-believers.

That's true, but again myths don't really hold much merit. If people back then could do it, people today should be able to, yet they do not. Also, Christ had the power of God so he hardly showed that reality was an illusion.

They practice of the ability of control of body and mind.

70 years without eating? 'Starving yogi' says it's true - The Body Odd

If a yogi were going to actually seemingly defy classical physics it would probably be with quantum physics.

I am not sure this qualifies as support for no objective reality. Despite that this yogi obviously had to take in water, control over the Self does not mean there is not objective reality, and and defying of physics, even at the quantum level, would require that aspect of reality to objectively exist. If it cannot be done by the mind alone it cannot be completely subjective.

 

[idav]

I am not sure this qualifies as support for no objective reality. Despite that this yogi obviously had to take in water, control over the Self does not mean there is not objective reality, and and defying of physics, even at the quantum level, would require that aspect of reality to objectively exist. If it cannot be done by the mind alone it cannot be completely subjective.

I do agree that there is an objective reality. This is conformed also by the fact that other people cannot manipulate our reality either. The most we are able to do is manipulate the physics that are in existence. No supernatural occurs, it is always physically explainable.

If this were not reality we would not be so bound by logic and physics unlike our dreams. The problem is that it is possible to be stuck in an unwavering reality like a dream where you can't move your arms.

Aside from that, IMO the subjectivity of reality has more to do with the fact that what we see is 90% projection of something that actually exists.

 

[Me Myself]

Ah, more contradictions from the logic master. You already told me that there are not different levels and such, but now you are claiming there are different planes, such as the mental plane and subtle dimension.

He was talking about a different kind of "levels" just now.