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Reality: What is it?

godnotgod

Thou art That
Science has not clarified it yet, so I will wait - eternal or 'Ex-nihilo', rather than jumping to conclusions.

Actually, cutting edge science HAS clarified it. The Quantum Vacuum is absolutely nothing, and only Nothingness can be eternal.

 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Something defined in terms of itself is meaningless.

There is no separation between you and Reality, and yet, you are 'defining' Reality in a subject/object split that exists only in the mind. You are in essence, Reality defining itself, or at least, attempting to define the indefinable.

Did you notice that I used quotation marks around the word 'defined'? No, Reality can never be encapsulated by words or concepts, not even the concept of 'Truth'. Reality is simply 'thus'.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
No, Reality can never be encapsulated by words or concepts, not even the concept of 'Truth'. Reality is simply 'thus'.
That nothing is encapsulated by words or concepts doesn't prevent definition. Hence, you have attempted to state reality in terms of itself, and now in terms of the encapsulation of words and concepts.

It's okay to define things. Really.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
That nothing is encapsulated by words or concepts doesn't prevent definition. Hence, you have attempted to state reality in terms of itself, and now in terms of the encapsulation of words and concepts.

It's okay to define things. Really.

....but only if you understand that a definition is not the actual thing you are pointing to. Unbelievably, most people really do mistake the description for that which is being described. That is why mystics ultimately abandon all words and concepts and go into the Silent World.

How else can Reality be determined other than via itself? Anything else is apart from Reality.

Encapsulation does not prevent definition; it IS definition. But Reality can never be so encapsulated. If you think it can be, you are deluded. Many think that science will lead them to discovering the true nature of Reality, but the very method of science, which is dissection, can never come close, because the true nature of Reality is beyond all such methodologies; beyond Reason, Logic, and Analysis. The approach itself is all wrong, but the approach reinforces the notion that it is the correct way.


"Each philosophy chooses a few things from reality and tries to remain oblivious of other things. Because of this, each philosophy has loopholes, each philosophy has leakages, each philosophy can be criticised -- and has to be criticised. Those who believe in it may pretend not to see the loopholes, but those who don't believe in it see only the loopholes -- they choose from the other end. Each philosophy has been criticised and the criticism has not been wrong. It is as true as the propounder's idea about it.

And it does not happen only in philosophy, it happens in science too. We create a certain theory and then there is the honeymoon with the theory. For a few years things go perfectly well. Then reality asserts itself. Reality brings up a few things and the theory gets into difficulty because we had excluded a few facts. Those facts will protest, they will sabotage your theory, they will assert themselves. In the eighteenth century science was absolutely certain, now it is certain no more. Now a new theory has come: the theory of uncertainty.

Just a hundred and fifty years ago Immanuel Kant came across this fact in Germany. He said that reason is very limited; it sees only a certain part of reality and starts believing 'that this is the whole. This has been the trouble. Sooner or later we discover further realities and the old whole is in conflict with the new vision. Immanuel Kant attempted to show that there were ineluctable limits to reason, that reason is very limited. But nobody seems to have heard, nobody has cared about Immanuel Kant. Nobody cares much about philosophers.

But science in this century has at last caught up with Kant. Now Heinsenberg, in physics, and Godel, in mathematics, have shown ineluctable limits to human reason. They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core. Whatsoever we have been saying about nature has all gone wrong. All principles go wrong because nature is not synonymous with reason, nature is bigger than reason."

Osho
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
It's okay to define things. Really.

...which is where all the confusion and misunderstanding originates. It is far better, is it not, to silently point to That, to SEE directly, and without thought, what is, rather than to form conceptual frameworks about Reality. I mean, is it apparent to you that Reality is bigger...far bigger, and more immediately present and whole, than the limited mind with which we attempt to define it? You know, the Hindus see Ultimate Reality, or Brahman, as 'Pure Abstract Intelligence'.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
...which is where all the confusion and misunderstanding originates. It is far better, is it not, to silently point to That, to SEE directly, and without thought, what is, rather than to form conceptual frameworks about Reality. I mean, is it apparent to you that Reality is bigger...far bigger, and more immediately present and whole, than the limited mind with which we attempt to define it? You know, the Hindus see Ultimate Reality, or Brahman, as 'Pure Abstract Intelligence'.
We differ.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
We differ.

Uh huh.

Before words; before thought; before mind, even, there is consciousness. Consciousness simply SEES directly into the true nature of Reality when it is uncontaminated by thought; mind attempts to define Reality by forming conceptual frameworks about Reality.

As Maharishi Mahesh Yogi used to say:


"The description is not the described",

...and Alan Watts asked:

"Are we eating the menu instead of the meal"
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
A child once asked a monk:

"Grampa monk, what color is that tree?"

to which the monk replied:

"Why, it's the color that it is" :D
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No, Reality can never be encapsulated by words or concepts, not even the concept of 'Truth'. Reality is simply 'thus'.
I don't like the word 'never'. What do we know of future? Perhaps, our generations will be able to decipher truth, what if we do not know it at present. You can't understand reality if it is not put in words and ideas. Mind would convert what you feel in words.
They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core.
Yeah, at one time we could not understand Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. We understand that better now. Irrationality and paradox are no longer strangers to us.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Consciousness simply SEES directly into the true nature of Reality when it is uncontaminated by thought; mind attempts to define Reality by forming conceptual frameworks about Reality.
It is far better, is it not, to silently point to That, to SEE directly, and without thought, what is, rather than to form conceptual frameworks about Reality. I mean, is it apparent to you that Reality is bigger...far bigger, and more immediately present and whole, than the limited mind with which we attempt to define it? You know, the Hindus see Ultimate Reality, or Brahman, as 'Pure Abstract Intelligence'.
As I said above, mind would automatically convert it into words even without your realizing it; then only you would understand. IMHV, 'Pure Abstract Intelligence' is just humbug. (I am a staunch Hindu)
A child once asked a monk: "Grampa monk, what color is that tree?"
to which the monk replied: "Why, it's the color that it is" :D
See, he put it in words. :D
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The same things they are in the dual.
The world doesn't change for having a dual or non-dual ontological image.

If there are objects in the non dual, how is it non dual? And if non dual is an image then of what the image is? Or, I still am not clear as to what you mean.


It was the realization of what "non-dual" meant. The realization of non-dual is what "transformed my view." I balk at the word "transformed," though. The world doesn't change for having had a realization.

By transformation I meant change of outlook from dual to non dual.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Before words; before thought; before mind, even, there is consciousness. Consciousness simply SEES directly into the true nature of Reality when it is uncontaminated by thought; mind attempts to define Reality by forming conceptual frameworks about Reality
It appears that you are proclaiming "consciousness" prior to and apart from awareness. And I don't think this is logically possible.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
It appears that you are proclaiming "consciousness" prior to and apart from awareness. And I don't think this is logically possible.

Mind not apart from consciousness, but still distinct from it, as it comes into play out of consciousness, already present.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
... And nothing.

The truth is 'what is', and that includes what we think is, is, even when we're wrong.

There is no 'what isn't'. Even a wrong view of reality is still reality.

The right view of Reality is Reality itself; the wrong view is not-Reality, as it can only be either illusion or delusion. The reality is that wrong view is not-Reality. How can it be otherwise?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I don't like the word 'never'. What do we know of future? Perhaps, our generations will be able to decipher truth, what if we do not know it at present. You can't understand reality if it is not put in words and ideas. Mind would convert what you feel in words.

There is no future; all is in this Present, and in no other time. New discoveries; new insights, are not made in the future; they are made in the here and now...always.

The understanding comes before the words, and without words. Words are an attempt to encapsulate Reality in some meaningful way by the thinking mind, but nothing can compare with the direct experience of Reality itself. All words fall far short of it. For this reason, the realization of the enlightened state occurs in Silence. Sat-Chit-Ananda.

Nothing can change the fact that words are incapable of capturing the true nature of Reality. If you think this is possible, do you have an example of how this can be?


Yeah, at one time we could not understand Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. We understand that better now. Irrationality and paradox are no longer strangers to us.

Nature is irrational and paradoxical because we are trying to 'figure it out' with the thinking mind, but the thinking mind of Reason, Logic, and Analysis cannot encapsulate the true nature of Reality, because Nature, as Osho is trying to tell us, is bigger than Reason. While Reason and Logic can provide us with factual knowledge, they can never show us the true nature of Reality. In fact, Reason and Logic stand squarely in the way of that revelation. To think that it can is one of the flaws that exists in the mind. It is for this very reason that the mystic transcends all of the machinations of mind.

"Yoga [ie divine union] is the cessation of all of the activities of the mind"
Patanjali, Yoga Sutras
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Well, I belong to a different school. I do not subscribe to 'Sachchidananda'. Osho (Chandra Mohan Jain) was only trying to get 100 Mercs. He was not even a Hindu.
1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack - Wikipedia

image001.jpg
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Mind not apart from consciousness, but still distinct from it, as it comes into play out of consciousness, already present.
Repeating it does not make it so. "Consciousness" is mindful awareness. Consciousness does not exist apart from mindful awareness. The mind is what is conscious. And awareness defines the state of being conscious. These are not separate ideas; they are logically and functionally integral.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The right view of Reality is Reality itself
ALL views of reality are "reality, itself". Right or wrong makes no difference. They are both "real".
... the wrong view is not-Reality, as it can only be either illusion or delusion.
Illusion and delusion are both aspects of reality. They are both equally "real". There is no "unreality".
The reality is that wrong view is not-Reality. How can it be otherwise?
The reality is that a wrong view is just a wrong view. It's not any less "real" for being wrong.

Reality is 'what is'. And there is no 'what isn't'. 'What isn't' is an inherently illogical tautology.
 
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