• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Reason is the Most Important Driver of Human Moral Progress?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
EXACTLY! And there are some extremely important questions about whether humans are both foresighted and disciplined enough to wisely practice eugenics on a grand scale. Knowing humans, we're more likely to drive ourselves to extinction via eugenics on a grand scale than bring about a golden age. BUT -- everyone who selects someone to mate with with an eye on what kind of children he or she will father or mother is either practicing eugenics or practicing something not all that far from eugenics in principle.

It should be noted that, of all institutions, the Catholic Church engaged in what many scholars regard to be history's largest-scale social experiment in "negative eugenics" without actually killing or stigmatizing anyone (indeed, it went in tandem with a renewed focus on 'consent' and the right of spouses to choose partners without family involvement or paternal refusal).

This is no joke (its a huge often unspoken irony given that when involuntary euthanasia unfortunately returned in the 20th century the Catholic Church was (rightly) its most vocal opponent), and its widely recognised in scholarship that this was the first case of negative eugenics in the more benign way you describe, applied societal-wide:


Eugenics - Wikipedia

The first formal negative eugenics, that is a legal provision against the birth of allegedly inferior human beings, was promulgated in Western European culture by the Christian Council of Agde in 506, which forbade marriage between cousins.[15]​


Pope Gregory I (540 – 604), writing after the Council of Agde, would note the following in a letter to an Englishman:

CHURCH FATHERS: Registrum Epistolarum, Book XI, Letter 64 (Gregory the Great)

Answer of the blessed pope Gregory: A certain earthly law in the Roman republic allows the son and daughter, whether of a brother and sister, or of two brothers, or of two sisters, to marry together. But we have learned by experience that the progeny of such marriages cannot thrive. And the sacred law forbids to uncover the nakedness of kindred. Whence it follows that only the third or fourth generations of believers may be lawfully joined together


William Durham has noted that this statement is evidence that the church prohibition was originally based on some recognition of the physical abnormalities and health problems that come from inbreeding.

Today, it is a huge social problem among people of certain nationalities because of traditional cultures like the Germanic one that the church changed through its social engineering consanguinity laws:

First cousin marriages in Pakistani communities leading to 'appalling' disabilities among children

Basically put, the medieval Church destroyed tribalism and heavily penalized its main vehicle - cousin marriage - through the strictest reproductive, consanguinity laws ever imposed on a population in the entirety of human history (I think it makes China's old 'one-child' policy look tame by comparison). This had very big ramifications as a form of social engineering, quite apart from removing some of the undesirable genetic traits that arise from inbreeding.

From Jack Goody’s “The Development of the Family and Marriage in Europe” [pgs. 56-8]:

“What were the grounds for these extensive prohibitions on consanguineous marriages? The ‘Dictionnaire de Droit Canonique’ (1949) gives three general reasons that have been proposed:

“1. The moral reason, that marriage would threaten the respect and shame due to near ones.
“2. The social reason, that distant marriages enlarge the range of social relations. This common ‘anthropological’ notion was put forward by those great theologians, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, who recognised that out-marriage multiplied the ties of kinship and thus prevented villages from becoming ‘closed communities’, that is, solidary ones.
“3. The physiological reason, that the fertility of the mother or the health of the children might be endangered.

“The statements of Thomas Aquinas, which appeared in his ‘Summa Theologica‘ and was highly influential during the Middle Ages, raised a number of possible objections to consanguineous marriage…. (2 above)….


In the medieval period, marriage was prohibited by the Church at the Lateran Council of 1215 within the fourth degree of a consanguineous relationship, that is between third cousins or any anything closer.

But here's the thing: this all took place in a Christian social order that believed in fundamental human equality of status and soul, irrespective of hereditary illness or impairment (which is why the church had outlawed infanticide in the Roman Empire and other eugenic policies that went against basic human dignity).

There was no desire to 'eliminate' or leave to their fate the children of 'incestuous' unions, or to stigmatize them.

Again:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.61.3711&rep=rep1&type=pdf


“The conquest of the Western Roman Empire by Germanic tribes during the medieval period probably strengthen the importance of kinship groups in Europe. Yet, the actions of the Church caused the nuclear family — constituting of husband and wife, children, and sometimes a handful of close relatives — to dominate Europe by the late medieval period.

The medieval church instituted marriage laws and practices that undermined large kinship groups. From as early as the fourth century...It severely prohibited marriages among individuals of the same blood (consanguineous marriages), which had constituted a means to create and maintain kinship groups throughout history. The church also curtailed parents’ abilities to retain kinship ties through arranged marriages by prohibiting unions in which the bride didn’t explicitly agree to the union"
 
Last edited:

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe I look at morality in a different way than others and more strict
That may be. I am thinking in terms of the idea that more people have greater access to life, liberty and happiness than we did in the past. Though, this is not by any stretch universal. Of course, those of us that have, do not always spend much time worrying about those that have less or nothing. Maybe you are focusing on the area of morals that remains in need of shaping up?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That may be. I am thinking in terms of the idea that more people have greater access to life, liberty and happiness than we did in the past. Though, this is not by any stretch universal. Of course, those of us that have, do not always spend much time worrying about those that have less or nothing. Maybe you are focusing on the area of morals that remains in need of shaping up?
Yes, and there are many ways spiritual morality lack today, this is my focus. To me, materialistic things do not matter at all, but the morality we build from within is the essence in what we would gain from,
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"Self interest" & "our way of life" are good concepts to keep largely separate.

Isn't that just two different ways of saying the same thing? Our language is rather versatile that way. We have a way of using language to mask unseemly behavior behind euphemisms which makes it all seem so logical and reasonable.

I believe that was the motive of those waging them.

But were they being honest? And if they weren't honest, how did we let them get away with it?
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, and there are many ways spiritual morality lack today, this is my focus. To me, materialistic things do not matter at all, but the morality we build from within is the essence in what we would gain from,
That would certainly reduce greed and all the pain and sorrow that follow it. That is an area where we could use greater moral guidance. When does positive initiative, drive and ambition cross a moral line and become greed? When does accumulation replace need? I can see that as an area where much can be learned and needs are their for greater awareness, understanding and moral guidance.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That would certainly reduce greed and all the pain and sorrow that follow it. That is an area where we could use greater moral guidance. When does positive initiative, drive and ambition cross a moral line and become greed? When does accumulation replace need? I can see that as an area where much can be learned and needs are their for greater awareness, understanding and moral guidance.
If we do something for advancing our own life or situation on the cost of others, that is seen as greed, to not look toward others before our own needs.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
If we do something for advancing our own life or situation on the cost of others, that is seen as greed, to not look toward others before our own needs.
If two people are competing for the same thing and there is only the one thing, one person will gain at the expense of the other. Are you including that with greed or is your definition more strict?

I would consider how they compete to determine if greed exists for one or both in the situation. I do not see anything morally wrong with competition, but how it is carried out.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
If two people are competing for the same thing and there is only the one thing, one person will gain at the expense of the other. Are you including that with greed or is your definition more strict?

I would consider how they compete to determine if greed exists for one or both in the situation. I do not see anything morally wrong with competition, but how it is carried out.
In my understanding (and practice) a person with moral value would give the thing to the other person, if a person fights to gain it, that sounds a lot to be greed and ego that play into the situation.
 

iam1me

Active Member

"Reason is the key driver of human moral progress."

EDIT: A more accurate summary of Newberger Goldstein's thesis might be, "Reason deserves the greatest credit for whatever moral progress we have seen and see in the world." Or -- not "reason is the key driver of human moral progress", but rather "reason is the single most important driver of human moral progress."

Comments?

Reason is a tool. Those who are interested in doing good, in studying and teaching morality, can certainly use reason to attempt to improve society. However, you can't force others to listen. Those who aren't interested in what is right/wrong or who aren't willing to entertain conflicting understandings of right & wrong won't be reached.

Just look at all the willingly ignorant Trump supporters. There's an abundance of evidence for his racism, corruption, and ineptitude. They just ignore it and act like he's a holy man.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Isn't that just two different ways of saying the same thing?
"Enlightened self interest" is often used synonymously with "greed"....enlightened "greed".
"Protecting our way of life" seems broader, & would include altruism.
But were they being honest? And if they weren't honest, how did we let them get away with it?
The voters like war.
I've proven that on several occasions.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"Enlightened self interest" is often used synonymously with "greed"....enlightened "greed".
"Protecting our way of life" seems broader, & would include altruism.

Well, when it's our way of life, then it implies self-interest to the exclusion of other countries' ways of life.

The voters like war.
I've proven that on several occasions.

Then why don't they just tell the truth? Why do they have to go through such a big charade if the voters already like war anyway?
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
In my understanding (and practice) a person with moral value would give the thing to the other person, if a person fights to gain it, that sounds a lot to be greed and ego that play into the situation.
What if both offer it to the other and there is no further movement? What if it is a position of authority that needs someone to work within it for the good of society. These things can become very complex and one case may differ markedly from another, even when in essence, they are competitions between two or more people.

If it were a leadership position that is being competed for, wouldn't the best person be the one with more values? Shouldn't the best person get that position so that those that are being lead reap the benefit of that person's skills and knowledge?
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
What if both offer it to the other and there is no further movement? What if it is a position of authority that needs someone to work within it for the good of society. These things can become very complex and one case may differ markedly from another, even when in essence, they are competitions between two or more people.

If it were a leadership position that is being competed for, wouldn't the best person be the one with more values? Shouldn't the best person get that position so that those that are being lead reap the benefit of that person's skills and knowledge?
A person can be very skillful in a job as a boss on the paper, but if he/she does not have the ability to lead others they may not be the best for the job. so even a lesser educated person would be better in the long run.

But if someone was getting the job who was less educated a person with good education, but very high virtue or morality would be happy for the person who got the job. in the long run its just a job.
 

Moz

Religion. A pox on all their Houses.
I find it interesting that you cut off the time allowed just before Christianity got into power. Coincidence?

Extend that time period to 500 years and there are plentiful examples.
Hi
And what is the reason for that?
Why did Christianity change from a religion where they killed NO ONE for 300 years and then turned into a killing machine?
Ah i see.... the Christians were pacifists for 300 years so they could take over the state and implement their long secret plans to rule the world through war and death.

"The Christians Got Into Power"....... is that really what you think happened.... rubbish. I know you are smarter than that.... give me YOUR reason why the christian religion changed so much in the 300's.
Did the faith take over Rome or did Rome take over the faith?... it will be interesting to see if you will give an honest answer.

It was the state that took over the church NOT the other way around. Could it be possible that it was the NON CHRISTIAN political and national influence that corrupted the faith. It took a lot of nominal christians and greek philosophy injected into the discourse for the faith to be twisted into the monster you rightly condemn. The first christians were Non political, non violent, tax paying model citizens who can be tied to NO SCANDLE for 300 years.
Peace

Peace
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member

"Reason is the key driver of human moral progress."

EDIT: A more accurate summary of Newberger Goldstein's thesis might be, "Reason deserves the greatest credit for whatever moral progress we have seen and see in the world." Or -- not "reason is the key driver of human moral progress", but rather "reason is the single most important driver of human moral progress."

Comments?
No, empathy is. You can be reasonable and commit genocide. That's often a scenario in speculative fiction where an AI kills off humans because it determines that it's the most reasonable or logical thing to do in pursuit of a higher goal. Thanos snapping his fingers is another example of that. I don't believe in the myth of progress and tend to think that Pinker is an idiot, however.
 
Last edited:

atanu

Member
Premium Member
"Reason is the key driver of human moral progress."
Comments?

It is fake debate wherein husband-wife team arrive at their pet conclusion that the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century, furthered by heirs such as Dennet, Dawson, ands Pinker himself, has made the world a better place. There is not much to argue about on the video itself unless one knows Pinker's philosophy.

Who doubts that "reason is the single most important driver of human moral progress", except that I see no reason why evolution should have granted us objective reasoning power. Also, reason cannot reason in vacuum. There needs to be an inbuilt standard of comparison and a mechanism to discern deviation thereof. Pinker's denial of such a moral compass in the religions and in the Middle Ages is blind bias.

Furthermore, Pinker's statistics that purportedly shows great advancements has been questioned by historians as biased and selective. He uses 'proportion of total population' as a measurement criteria to claim that a man would be 35 times more likely to die a violent death in the Middle Ages compared to the present time. Critics have shown how naive Pinker's arguments are.

The limitations of Steven Pinker’s optimism
John Gray: Steven Pinker is wrong about violence and war
Unenlightened thinking: Steven Pinker’s embarrassing new book is a feeble sermon for rattled liberals
The Precious Steven Pinker | David Bentley Hart

Steven Pinker: False Friend of the Enlightenment

Finally, Pinker himself is not convinced that his 'statistical advancement' has led to any increased happiness.
...
 
Last edited:
Top