Sorry i dont mean to offend you but that is a very lame argument. That same logic can be used to prove the existance of anything.
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reason vs believe
- Thread starter robtex
- Start date
Sorry i dont mean to offend you but that is a very lame argument. That same logic can be used to prove the existance of anything.
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
Hi!
God threw human reason out the window when by human reasoning the world chose not to know God:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Cheers!
God threw human reason out the window when by human reasoning the world chose not to know God:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Cheers!
Reason is so overrated,as if it is the be all end all, it seems in today's culture it is the eptiome of intellectual superiority amongst the masses,and is used that way when in actuality it becomes a god that men seem to bow down,worship and idolize, a humanistic god, if you will.
I am not dismissing the fundamental requirement of reason and logic in scientific breakthroughs,but when most of life's daily expereinces are initiated primarily by our senses, which we tend to trust as faithul and reliable,including those elitist of the higher learning sect of society, be it scientists and all professionals,reason in actuality, quite often becomes secondary in our daily functions,if we are honest here, it seems to takes a back seat if you will to trust, faith and hope which takes precedence.
Although reason constantly intervenes and is established within us all, it is is not overly applied and or relied in most of day to day livng expereinces.
If reason takes a back seat in day to day living,I'm not saying totally removed , why is it any surprise thiests use this same faith,trust and hope in their pursuit of God, creation etc.
Non theists are bent on exploiting theists inability to reason with the mention of God almost making them somewhat more intellectual and it sounds convincing.
The irony of this all is the faith that we all live by 24/7 is the faith a theists uses as the primary step to God,expereince is the catalyst or proof enough for most ,if not all born again believers, but non theists use the same faith, trust and hope in daily life and it becomes more apparent evolutionists and evolutionary scientists use the same faith in their theories.
Before I drive my car, take a plane ,eat at a restaurant, take a drink, deposit my money in the bank , reason may enter in ,but I certainly don't attempt to reason out and rationalise every activity of my day, looking for that varifiable emperical evidence to support the safety of my car, plane,food I eat, the banks I use,no , I assume,trust,have faith in and rely on what I don't fully know ,that is faith ,without facts.After while it becomes second nature to just trust in the fact that it always worked.
It's no surprise God requires the same faith that we use every day to come to him
Scott C.
Just one guy
I agree some atheists are asking honest questions. Where is the evidence that God wants to reach us personally? Here is some scriptural evidence:
Behold I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (New Testament, Revelation 3:20)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (New Testament, James 1:5)
Here are some scriptural explanations of how God speaks to us:
I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost, ye may know the truth of all things. (Book of Mormon, Moroni 10:4,5)
I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. Now behold, this is the spirit of revelation (Doctrine and Covenants 8:2,3)
The individual needs to take the first step, to admit the possibility of the existence of God and to demonstrate enough personal desire to know if He exists. One must at least accept the possibility that God is willing to manifest Himself to him, but not through the normal human senses or through empirical evidence. It requires a degree of humility.
This may seem to be nonsense, unscientific, and irrational to some. But, nevertheless, God will speak to the human soul through the Holy Ghost and will reveal Himself in His own way. There is a spiritual world with spiritual communication mechanisms that must be recognized and utilized to come to know there is a God. Consider this scripture from the New Testament:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:15)
The atheist who demands proof will never get it, unless hes willing to humbly ask God for evidence on Gods terms, not the atheists terms.
Scott C.
Just one guy
Nope.
Some(not all) Atheists seem to have it in their minds that faith and reason are polar opposites and that having one automatically eliminates the other from your mind. And these same Atheists(again some not all) will claim that reason is superior and without it your nothing but a drone or a bible thumper or what have you. It's similar to what many religions believe... that if you don't think the way they do then you are "lost". There are minor differences but in the end it's the same "I'm right, your wrong" mindset born of arrogance, ignorance, and a closed-mind. There's a quote that sums it up really well "Reason without faith is dull(?), Faith without reason is blind"(There may be another word used other than dull). The basic point is that you if you have one without the other your missing something. No doubt for most people one takes a backseat to the other but neither reason nor faith can be abandoned completely as if one were to be so abandoned then the person would no longer be able to function. For me reason and faith go hand in hand. I think the reason many Atheists look down on faith is because they believe that being atheistic is the most logical stance however that, I feel, is not the case. I feel that agnosticism is actually more logical than either atheism or theism. This is because we can't know whether or not God exists, we have no way to prove it let alone any way to know the nature of such a being(s)/force(s). So logically speaking it is agnosticism that holds the most logical position as it makes no definite stance in either direction. Faith and reason can go hand in hand if one allows them too. I find it highly arrogan, ignorant, and insulting whenever someone makes the claim that just because one is theist or that one has faith it automatically means they lack any ability to reason or that their ability to reason is defective. This is simply not the case.
Religion is about faith, not reason. If reason came into the equation no one would believe in a magical being who lives everywhere at the same time, and can hear and see everything in the universe whilst talking to and hearing us and answering our prayers simultaneously. Oh and i forgot he made everything in the universe as well.
You cant call that reasonable!
Please not i am not refering to individual people, individuals may or may not be reasonable. My point is that the basic foundation of all religions is based on faith, not reason. The belief in a all knowing god displaying the characteristics i mention above is not reasonable, to accept the existance of god you must have faith.
Some religions involve both
In my experience it is...
Some religions involve both
In my experience it is...
Hello Emu
im sorry to offend you (if i do) but you cant call the belief in an all powerful being that has total control over all the matter in the entire universe reasonable.
No offense taken, but I can and do.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Why not?
Because there is absoloutly no evidence such a being exists, and you would think it reasonable that such a being would leave some solid evidence rather then just medievil myths and anecdotes.
What if it's reasonable that there be no evidence? For instance, all evidence that is "found" is, by default, part of the creation, not the creator.
Hi Willamena (thats a lovely name)
Your statement makes no sense. It would be very unreasonable for there to be no evidence of such a powerful being ruling over all the universe. That would be like finding a man guilty of murder without any evidence to back up the charges.
I was looking at it from a step back. If evidence is "things" and of things, then it is reasonable to imagine that there is no evidence of non-things.
The thing is stone we don't know the true nature of "God", whether there are one or many what form they take how they interact with the universe if at all... So how can we make any claims as to what is reasonable or not when it comes to God. Now granted that also means I have no more basis to make claims about what IS reasonable for God. So in that since we are both in the same boat. Yes It requires faith to believe in God but that does not automatically mean that reason is completely discarded. The main reason I left Christianity was because the ways of God as proposed by the Christian faiths seemed unreasonable to me. I am Pagan now because Paganism IS reasonable to me. I'm not the type to follow a religion that doesn't make sense to me. you also seem to be assuming that if God exists he would have the traits you describe but as I said, since we can't know the nature of God we cannot make any definite claims as to what is and is not reasonable in terms of God's existence and nature. So even to say that such and such type of God is unreasonable is a statment of faith.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
So?
Since when is lack of evidence considered evidence in and of itself?
Lack of proof is not proof.
Would not the same hold true for evidence?
If so, you have nothing to argue.
If not, why is it different?
Very well explained. The reason i dont trust religion is because it does beleive it knows the nature and wants of a god when they can never know the true nature of god if such a being does exist.
You miss understand me, i have not said that the lack of evidence is evidence that god does not exist, i said there is no evidence that god does exist. Just like there is no evidence that a giant teapot is floating in orbit around Mars. This does not prove that the teapot does not exist, however it is pointless to make judgements and decisions on our life on earth based on the existance teapot until there is evidence that the teapot is there.
Except when they do not ...
The absence of evidence is evidence.
It is an intellectually vapid anology.