I've heard that the traditional understanding of the Catholic church supersedes the individual interpretation of the Bible. Are you saying there was a time this wasn't true within church doctrine?
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Reasons for believing in the Bible as the literal word of God.
- Thread starter an anarchist
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I've heard that the traditional understanding of the Catholic church supersedes the individual interpretation of the Bible. Are you saying there was a time this wasn't true within church doctrine?
TLK Valentine
Read the books that others would burn.
Ready to discuss Luke now -- remember, In order for the Bible to be without error, Luke's account has to be consistent with history before we can even determine whether it's consistent with Matthew's account.
Luke's got the same problem Matthew has: Jesus lives in Nazareth, but needs to be born in Bethlehem. Since Luke's not trying to mirror OT heroes like Matthew is, he comes up with a completely different solution.
Luke 2:1-5
[1] And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
[2] (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[3] And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David)
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
As much as I hate to do a Gish Gallop, we've got a sackful of historical inaccuracies in these five verses alone:
- The Romans were pretty meticulous record-keepers, yet no record of any such decree from Agustus exists.
- The Roman records on Cyrenius are pretty solid, however -- he became governor of Syria around the end of AD 6. But Jesus was born when Herod was King (Luke 1:5) which couldn't have been after 4 BC. Only way you're going to pull that off is if he was born in a TARDIS.
- The world should be taxed? The entire Roman empire, all at once? Romans didn't do it that way -- taxes were collected province by province, for reasons which should be blindingly obvious: trying to do the whole thing at once would've overwhelmed the Roman bureaucracy and brought the whole government to a screeching halt.
- Judaea became a Roman province around AD 6, Iudaea, but that province did not include Galilee -- if there was such a census or tax, Joseph, a Galilean, was not subject to it. He made the trip for nothing.
- Each to their own city? Did Augustus actually expect every single subject and citizen of the empire to drop everything and make the trip for this? never mind the government; the empire itself would fall apart!
- Since when does any census or taxation require a person to go back to the place of your birth? The census, especially for purposes of taxation, isn't about where you're from, but about where you are. It's a completely unnecessary literary ploy to get Joseph and his family on the road.
- Luke has to return to Bethlehem because he is a descendant of David. Luke 3:23-38 names 41 generations from David to Joseph -- 41! Think of how many heirs and descendants would be produced over 41 generations -- now multiply that number when you consider that David himself had several wives, concubines, and mistresses that we know of through the Bible. How many people with a Davidic claim would be descending on O little town of Bethlehem? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Kind of explains why there was no room at the inn, doesn't it?
- Nazareth is about 100 miles or so from Bethlehem --not only is that 100 miles through scorching desert (making daytime travel unsafe and unwise) and pitch-black night (making nighttime travel unsafe and unwise), but to get there, you'd have to travel through Samaria -- making any travel for a Jew unsafe and unwise. Joseph not only made this trek (about 7-10 days on foot or donkey) for no reason (see point 4) but thought it was a good idea to bring his 9-month pregnant wife along! Smooth move, Joseph.
- As if points 4 and 8 don't qualify Joseph for the "Bonehead of the Century" award, let's not forget that the Roman census did not include women -- only men. If Joseph had no reason to go to Bethlehem, then Mary had even less reason to go.
We need to sort all this out - and a whole lot more - before we even try reconciling it with Matthew.
Navy pilots recall "unsettling" 2004 UAP sighting
Cmdr. Dave Fravor and Lt. Cmdr. Alex Dietrich were training with the USS Nimitz Carrier Strike Group when a UAP encounter occurred over the Pacific Ocean.
www.cbsnews.com
WATCH: Pentagon holds briefing on UFO reports, fighting in eastern Ukraine
The U.S. has now collected 510 reports of unidentified flying objects, many of which are flying in sensitive military airspace.
www.pbs.org
Fairy tales??? - since 1947 the US government has had eight different projects investigating UFOs. And some new ones recently.
The Bible says the whole world will see Jesus coming back from the clouds with his angels, to render judgment and the world is going to try to do battle with him and this entire solar system is going to be destroyed. Unbelieving People of the world will be screaming alien invasion because they don't know him.
What men now calls aliens, the ancient people called angels. What man now calls "magic sky god" the ancients call him a supernatural being .... God.
They are described basically the same and the feats they did then they do now.
Okay sky fairy
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If someone says "Look out, that home looks like a train wreck," is that to be considered as literal?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Many people now do not see Jesus with their literal eyesNavy pilots recall "unsettling" 2004 UAP sighting
Cmdr. Dave Fravor and Lt. Cmdr. Alex Dietrich were training with the USS Nimitz Carrier Strike Group when a UAP encounter occurred over the Pacific Ocean.
WATCH: Pentagon holds briefing on UFO reports, fighting in eastern Ukraine
The U.S. has now collected 510 reports of unidentified flying objects, many of which are flying in sensitive military airspace.
Fairy tales??? - since 1947 the US government has had eight different projects investigating UFOs. And some new ones recently.
The Bible says the whole world will see Jesus coming back from the clouds with his angels, to render judgment and the world is going to try to do battle with him and this entire solar system is going to be destroyed. Unbelieving People of the world will be screaming alien invasion because they don't know him.
What men now calls aliens, the ancient people called angels. What man now calls "magic sky god" the ancients call him a supernatural being .... God.
They are described basically the same and the feats they did then they do now.
Okay sky fairy
== but realize something is happening that just isn't getting better...
Rather, isn't it the case that the Tanakh is a remarkable set of documents recording for a particular culture, place and span of time their ancient beliefs and practices, and ancient folk history and folk stories and folk wisdom, and some actual history as well?
And that the new testament is a different set of documents arising from a first-century Jewish cult, which found a great selling point with the offer of post-mortal life subject to conditions and thus within a relatively few decades had abandoned its Jewish connections and become Christianity?
Jerusalem was overthrow in the books were destroyed at least twice by the Babylonians and the Romans. And possibility more than that. They had a scribe or two that rewrote the scrolls after destructions and in some cases it was assigned to people to memorize what was written.
Inscribing Scripture on Your Child’s Heart
Writing God’s Word is a significant process for memorization. Parents and caregivers can use a Scripture Writing Plan to encourage this habit. Reading scripture can feed our spirit, but the practice of writing can allow the Word of God to penetrate and imprint our heart.
www.covenantchristian.net
Moses wrote the first five books so when Moses say the Lord told him this, that, or the other it wasn't secondhand.
David wrote most of the Psalms Solomon wrote most of the Proverbs and Ecclesiastics and the song of Solomon - Solomon was referred to as the preacher, in Hebrew Qohelet.
In most instances the prophets wrote their own books. So when they say the word of the Lord came unto me, it wasn't second hand either.
The prophet Jeremiah wrote the book of Jeremiah, Lamentations, and the Books of Kings. Isaiah wrote Isaiah, Amos wrote Amos, forth and so on.
Much of the Bible is the literal word of God _ just as a lot of it is the telling of events and the lives of certain people.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
Finally some school districts are starting to wise up:
"Utah district bans Bible in elementary, middle school 'due to vulgarity or violence"
www.fox4news.com
"Utah district bans Bible in elementary, middle school 'due to vulgarity or violence"
Utah district bans Bible in elementary, middle school 'due to vulgarity or violence'
The Good Book is being treated like a bad book in Utah after a parent frustrated by efforts to ban materials from schools convinced a suburban district that some Bible verses were too vulgar or violent for younger children.
Thrillobyte
Active Member
Here's are some good verses for you and your wife to live by:
“If two Israelite men get into a fight and the wife of one tries to rescue her husband by grabbing the testicles of the other man,
you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." Deuteronomy 25:11
How bout this one:
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him,
his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
How bout this one:
“You shall not permit a sorceress to live." Exodus 22:18
How bout this one:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."
Note the phrase "if they are discovered". If they are NOT discovered then the man goes scott-free with no consequences for his crime.
Yessiree, great laws for educated intelligent people of today to live by, don'tcha think?!
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syo
Well-Known Member
There are 33,000,000 gods. Maybe one god out of the 33 million gave the bible. So what??? One must be a polytheist anyway.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
In regard to the official teachings, the Church has that right, but we as parishioners have the right of personal discernment. However, there were numerous times in the past when the Church acted more like the Gestapo than the early and more recent Church.
BTW, the Church never bought into scriptural inerrancy.
PureX
Veteran Member
That's an absurdly inflated and very biased statement.
There is only one 'God', but it has many different names and is conceived of in many different ways by many different people. Sometimes as a multitude of anthropomorphic personas, sometimes as an unnamed and undefinable existential source, or as any of the many possibilities in between.
syo
Well-Known Member
No, it's not.
How true. Only seven passages have been definitely interpreted by the Church. Otherwise, it is open to possible interpretations.
Even in these few cases, the Church is only defending traditional doctrine and morals. Jesus' teaching in John 3:5 that we must be born of water and of the Spirit" means that real ("natural") water must be used for a valid baptism. When Jesus, after instituting the Eucharist, commanded His disciples to "Do this in memory of me" (Luke 22:19; I Corinthians 11:24), he meant to confer priestly ordination. The power conferred on the apostles to bind and loose sins (see John 20:23) authorized them and their successors in the priestly office to forgive sins in God's name. These authoritative interpretations emphasize the biblical origins of sacramental life. (The three other defined texts are John 20:22; Romans 5:12 and James 5:14)."
Ok I'll assume you are seeing from the POV of a Catholic. I'm seeing from the POV of a non-Catholic.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
No, I'm seeing it from the point of view of actual history, thus in no way defending all that the Church has done or taught.
So, how do you see it with your non-Catholic POV?
BTW, I was brought up in a fundamentalist Protestant church, but then not all Protestants are the same, which might be the understatement of the century.
No, I'm seeing it from the point of view of actual history, thus in no way defending all that the Church has done or taught.
So, how do you see it with your non-Catholic POV?
BTW, I was brought up in a fundamentalist Protestant church, but then not all Protestants are the same, which might be the understatement of the century.
Five hundred years ago, in 1517, Martin Luther, a German monk and university professor, posted 95 theses to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany. The theses, written in Latin, were an invitation to a scholarly debate on indulgences, the certificates by which the Roman Church offered early release from suffering in Purgatory. Beginning “Out of love for the truth and the desire to elucidate it…”, the theses were soon translated into German and spread throughout Germany. Luther’s call for debate led to the Reformation, a major transformation in world history which transformed the face of Europe and deeply influenced settlements in America. Luther and other Reformers reasserted the authority of the Scripture alone, as opposed to tradition and church hierarchy. They maintained that salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. These phrases or theological principles are often called the “Five Solas of the Reformation” (sola being the Latin word for “lone” or “only”): Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria.
Martin Luther and the Scriptures | Houston Christian University
This is the history that I learned.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, and it was a fundamentalist Lutheran Church I grew up in with plans to become a minister. However, the position against the ToE as well as the blatant racism there was so terrible, I started going to my wife's Catholic Church. However, I would be more comfortable in a Lutheran church in the ELCA Synod in today's world.
BTW, my theological drift is so far out in left field that I can't even see home plate. However, I'm quite comfortable with this as a follower of Jesus and Gandhi, thus a mix of Christianity and Hinduism.
I'm never against a person going with what feels right to them.
As long as your happy, if that is what you are looking for. Some people seem to frown of that.
Your happy, I'm happy, everything is good.
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