reasons given for religious belief

[Riverwolf]

I apologize, I did not notice. I have read about 4 versions of the bible, the Qu'ran, I recruited my friend to teach me about Pagan and druidism, and a few Wiccan friends I am lucky to know. Vedic based religions, etc. I won't claim that I've looked into every religion as there are far too many. But I like to keep updated on theological topics of the more commonly found ones.

Well, Hinduism IS the third largest religion in the world, with about 1 billion adherents.

It's just that about 95% of them are in India. (And, from what I understand, only about 30-40% of them are familiar with our Scriptures.)

 

[Breathe]

I apologize, I did not notice.

No need.

Vedic based religions, etc.

I'm afraid I find your statement here a little vague.

Does that mean you have read the Purāṇas as well? Have you read through any of the Upaniṣads? Which of the Vedas did you read? Did you go past the Ṛgveda, or did you go further? What about the Bhagavad Gītā?

When you say Vedic based religions, do you mean you have read information on the various Hindu schools? If so, which ones did you research? Vaiṣṇava, Śaiva, Śākta, Smarta? What about Advaita Vedānta?


When you say "etc", does that mean you have read through other religious texts or studied them, such as one of the youngest religion's scriptures, Sikhism? I expect not - pretty much nobody has read Sikh scripture, even on RF. Kudos, however, if you have.

 

[Photonic]

No need.


I'm afraid I find your statement here a little vague.

Does that mean you have read the Purāṇas as well? Have you read through any of the Upaniṣads? Which of the Vedas did you read? Did you go past the Ṛgveda, or did you go further? What about the Bhagavad Gītā?

When you say Vedic based religions, do you mean you have read information on the various Hindu schools? If so, which ones did you research? Vaiṣṇava, Śaiva, Śākta, Smarta? What about Advaita Vedānta?


When you say "etc", does that mean you have read through other religious texts or studied them, such as one of the youngest religion's scriptures, Sikhism? I expect not - pretty much nobody has read Sikh scripture, even on RF. Kudos, however, if you have.

You are quite right, that was a little vague. I was introduced to a few of them by one of my literature professors a year ago. I will admit my knowledge on the subject of vedic scriptures and religions is a little rusty because I tend not to debate them much because I respect their open mindedness much more than Abrahamic religions.

 

[Breathe]

You are quite right, that was a little vague. I was introduced to a few of them by one of my literature professors a year ago. I will admit my knowledge on the subject of vedic scriptures and religions is a little rusty because I tend not to debate them much because I respect their open mindedness much more than Abrahamic religions.

Without sounding condescending, I think your knowledge of Hinduism is a little bit, well, lacking. You should study the various schools a little bit for understanding. The Vedas are an excellent source of literature, but the Western translations are frowned upon, and there are many other literatures that are used by Hindus. I'd suggest starting with the Bhagavad Gītā.

Really, with regards to open mindedness, there's only a few religions which have a lot of people who hold a closed minded view. I've met many Abrahamics who are somewhat universal in their opinion after all.

 

[Photonic]

Without sounding condescending, I think your knowledge of Hinduism is a little bit, well, lacking. You should study the various schools a little bit for understanding. The Vedas are an excellent source of literature, but the Western translations are frowned upon, and there are many other literatures that are used by Hindus. I'd suggest starting with the Bhagavad Gītā.

Really, with regards to open mindedness, there's only a few religions which have a lot of people who hold a closed minded view. I've met many Abrahamics who are somewhat universal in their opinion after all.

You don't live in the United States, do you?

And I only speak 5 languages, would I have to learn another to read this? (Note I have read some of the Gita in English. Is there anything lost in translation of it?)

The Mahabharata in whole is very long so I'll freely admit I have yet to read the entire thing.

 

[Breathe]

You don't live in the United States, do you?

I'm not sure how this is relevant, but I do not live in the United States. Why do you ask?

And I only speak 5 languages, would I have to learn another to read this? (Note I have read some of the Gita in English. Is there anything lost in translation of it?)

There are some untranslated scriptures. It would be best to have knowledge of Sanskrit, but that is not always something that one can do. Naturally, a lot of things are lost in translation of various books. When it comes to religious scriptures, they are usually translated word for word.

This does not help, as scriptures are written in languages, which use idioms, and many idioms are lost.

I do not believe it is in one's best interest to read translations that come from Western non-Hindus. Therefore, I would not suggest reading the translations of Max Müller or Ralph Griffith. Why is this? It's the same as asking a Muslim to translate the Torah.

If you wish for an understanding of the scripture, it's best to get it from someone who knows the subtleties of the language, and of the meanings of texts.

A good translator, from what I have heard, is Wendy Doniger. She has a lot of respect as a translator, but I'd still suggest something from a Hindu translator. One can know as much Sanskrit as they like, but if they do not have an understanding of the meaning behind the stories or idioms, then they may end up with a very literal translation. Languages are not literal, as you would know, speaking five languages.

The Mahabharata in whole is very long so I'll freely admit I have yet to read the entire thing.

I'd suggest just focusing on the Bhagavad Gītā for now. Then, I would suggest reading some of the Upaniṣads.

Naturally, it's worth pointing out that Dharmic literature is not always literal. The Purāṇas are a good example of this.

 

[charles brough]

Too bad, I was trying to have a conversation with you. Should your wings ever fall off just use your broom stick.

. . .seems to me she had a point. We really don't quite know what is going on in their minds that gives them the impression of having "mystical experiences" so there is really nothing much if anything to say further. To me, an atheist, there is no such thing as "spirits" of any kind, so whatever their experiences are, to me, they are not "spiritual."

And what about the term "pantheism" under your name? The term itself denotes "theism." Do you believe the world or universe is a "spirit?" I don't mean that argumentally but because I have always wondered. Please straighten me out on that because I consider pantheists to be "pandiests" and classified along with the rest of us non-theists.

 

[Photonic]

I'm not sure how this is relevant, but I do not live in the United States. Why do you ask?

The reason I asked is because people of Abrahamic beliefs here are generally not very open minded.

 

[Breathe]

The reason I asked is because people of Abrahamic beliefs here are generally not very open minded.

But naturally, there are exceptions to this.

What made this crop up in conversation?

 

[Photonic]

But naturally, there are exceptions to this.

What made this crop up in conversation?

Well, you said that many of the people of Abrahamic beliefs you meet are open minded, and I don't know if you have been to the US or not but generally speaking they are absolutely close minded about their religion.

 

[Riverwolf]

You don't live in the United States, do you?

I do, and the only Christian I've ever met who I know was closed-minded was a kid from Junior High. Everyone else was very open minded.

Heck, I also live in California.

 

[Photonic]

I do, and the only Christian I've ever met who I know was closed-minded was a kid from Junior High. Everyone else was very open minded.

Heck, I also live in California.

So do I, and I've lived in MANY places in the US. California is by and far one of the most open minded places I've ever been.

 

[Skeptisch]

And what about the term "pantheism" under your name? The term itself denotes "theism." Do you believe the world or universe is a "spirit?" I don't mean that argumentally but because I have always wondered. Please straighten me out on that because I consider pantheists to be "pandiests" and classified along with the rest of us non-theists.

This sums up “my” pantheism quite nicely http://www.pantheism.net/paul/index.htm

Also, in his book The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins has described Pantheism as “sexed-up atheism.” That may seem flippant, but it is accurate. Of all religious or spiritual traditions, Pantheism - the approach of Einstein, Hawking and many other scientists - is the only one that passes the muster of the world's most militant atheist.

Like mentioned before, it seems unfair to paraphrase someone when the original quote is at hand:
“A human being is part of the whole called by us universe ... We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive”. (Albert Einstein)

My hero Carl Sagan said this:
"An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god”.

 

[Breathe]

Well, you said that many of the people of Abrahamic beliefs you meet are open minded, and I don't know if you have been to the US or not but generally speaking they are absolutely close minded about their religion.

My brother lives in the US, and I've visited there a couple of times.

I also live in a majority Christian (at least in name, not really in practice or adherence) nation. I've not really had, nor experienced much hassle at all. My brother is even a traditional non-denominational conservative Christian, and even he hasn't given me that much hassle.

I guess I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Claiming that the majority of, what, about 250 or 300 million or so American Christians are "absolutely close minded about their religion" is far too broad of a generalisation for me to be comfortable with.

 

[Photonic]

My brother lives in the US, and I've visited there a couple of times.

I also live in a majority Christian (at least in name, not really in practice or adherence) nation. I've not really had, nor experienced much hassle at all. My brother is even a traditional non-denominational conservative Christian, and even he hasn't given me that much hassle.

I guess I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Claiming that the majority of, what, about 250 or 300 million or so American Christians are "absolutely close minded about their religion" is far too broad of a generalisation for me to be comfortable with.

You are of course absolutely free to disagree with me, but I HAVE lived in the US my entire life. Most of which was spent in those heavily christian areas. They are very thick headed about their religion.

 

[Draka]

You are of course absolutely free to disagree with me, but I HAVE lived in the US my entire life. Most of which was spent in those heavily christian areas. They are very thick headed about their religion.

Having grown up in the Midwest and having also bumped around from coast to coast while in the Navy, I have also been exposed to quite a bit of the US, including the more heavily Christian populated ones. I can also say that the amount of "closed-minded" or "thick-headed" Christians I've met have been few and far inbetween. Sure I've met a few hard-headed thumpers in my life, shoot they can be some of the most fun people to poke with my stick, but they are far outweighed by the nice, open and accepting Christians.

Goodness, think about it, I live in a medium sized town/city in Iowa. I have not only a church across the street from me, but 5 churches within a 2 block radius of me. I'm an open Wiccan with a pentagram on my door, pentacle hanging from my rearview mirror of my van, and a "Goddess Bless" bumper sticker all in plain view. Churchgoers park along the street right in front of my house every Sunday. Not one has ever been rude or preachy towards me. I don't get tracts at my door. I don't get dirty looks. Nothing. In fact, what I have gotten from time to time is requests for tarot readings.

So as someone who has also lived in the US their whole life and lived in various places across the US, am I free to disagree with you as well?

 

[Skeptisch]

You are of course absolutely free to disagree with me, but I HAVE lived in the US my entire life. Most of which was spent in those heavily christian areas. They are very thick headed about their religion.

Photonic, could it be that the people you call “absolutely close minded about their religion” are so knowing you are an atheist. I lived in the US too and found as long as you have faith and believe in something, preferably something supernatural, you are ok. But atheism is a big no no?

“A 2006 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota involving a poll of 2,000 households in the United States found atheists to be the most distrusted of minorities, more so than Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians, and other groups.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

 

[Breathe]

You are of course absolutely free to disagree with me, but I HAVE lived in the US my entire life. Most of which was spent in those heavily christian areas. They are very thick headed about their religion.

See Draka's post. She said it very well.

I live in a Christian nation, as well (at least, in name). I've never had any really bad experienced, never had any real hassle, so I don't see a point in painting a very significant number of people with the same brush.

 

[Photonic]

Having grown up in the Midwest and having also bumped around from coast to coast while in the Navy, I have also been exposed to quite a bit of the US, including the more heavily Christian populated ones. I can also say that the amount of "closed-minded" or "thick-headed" Christians I've met have been few and far inbetween. Sure I've met a few hard-headed thumpers in my life, shoot they can be some of the most fun people to poke with my stick, but they are far outweighed by the nice, open and accepting Christians.

Goodness, think about it, I live in a medium sized town/city in Iowa. I have not only a church across the street from me, but 5 churches within a 2 block radius of me. I'm an open Wiccan with a pentagram on my door, pentacle hanging from my rearview mirror of my van, and a "Goddess Bless" bumper sticker all in plain view. Churchgoers park along the street right in front of my house every Sunday. Not one has ever been rude or preachy towards me. I don't get tracts at my door. I don't get dirty looks. Nothing. In fact, what I have gotten from time to time is requests for tarot readings.

So as someone who has also lived in the US their whole life and lived in various places across the US, am I free to disagree with you as well?

Yes. Go ahead and do the same thing in Alabama, Georgia, West Virginia, Tennessee, etc. ****, try Texas. I'm not saying all of them are. Maybe I'm wrong about it even being a majority, but there are a huge number of unaccepting practicing Christians in the South. Easily enough to make it a problem.

 

[Riverwolf]

Also, in his book The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins has described Pantheism as “sexed-up atheism.” That may seem flippant, but it is accurate.

Hardly; since the universe is seen as God, that means it's also sentient.

Pantheism, when we remove the word God, means that there is an omnipresent Consciousness.