• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Reasons to be a Skeptic – Not an Atheist

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think there is any confusion here. Maybe a misinterpretation
You agreed with GA saying the word "skeptic" has been hijacked by people who aren't skeptical and only want to defend atheist materialism. You say those people aren't truly skeptical because they aren't using critical thinking, and I respond by saying those people just reached a different conclusion than you. That doesn't make them unskeptical.

Yes, misinterpretation. I made no comments about atheist/materialist ideologies - I was pointing out (like GA), that skepticism basically means critical thinking. As GA said, the term "skeptic" has been usurped by atheist/materialist ideologies as a synonym for itself. I disagree with that. Skepticism is not synonymous with any particular ideological position, atheistic, materialistic, or otherwise. Skepticism is an approach characterized by critical thinking, which may or may not be present in any particular atheist or materialist or theist or transtheist or spiritualist or pluralist or whatever. I object to using "skeptic" as a synonym for "atheist" or "materialist."
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yes, misinterpretation. I made no comments about atheist/materialist ideologies - I was pointing out (like GA), that skepticism basically means critical thinking. As GA said, the term "skeptic" has been usurped by atheist/materialist ideologies as a synonym for itself. I disagree with that. Skepticism is not synonymous with any particular ideological position, atheistic, materialistic, or otherwise. Skepticism is an approach characterized by critical thinking, which may or may not be present in any particular atheist or materialist or theist or transtheist or spiritualist or pluralist or whatever. I object to using "skeptic" as a synonym for "atheist" or "materialist."
They aren't synonyms, certainly. As you alluded to, "skeptic" speaks to the process used to reach one's conclusions, while terms like "atheist" and "materialist" speak to the conclusion the person has reached... regardless of how he or she got there.

I'm pretty in tune with the skeptical movement, and I've seen prominent skeptics call atheists, materialists, and self-declared skeptics out if they aren't using critical thinking properly. It happens all the time. The skeptic movement as a whole definitely does not assume that "atheist" implies "skeptic".

It's definitely possible to believe an otherwise-reasonable conclusion for bad reasons, but there are some conclusions that just can't be reached reasonably. There are also conclusions that are commonly reached for bad reasons, even if we can't perfectly exclude the possibility that someone, somewhere, at some point in the future might arrive at the same conclusion in a reasonable way.

Because of that, I have to disagree with you when you say that skepticism may or may not be present in any worldview. Some positions are simply incompatible with a skeptical worldview. Take homeopathy (as a hopefully uncontroversial example): acceptance of the claim that homeopathy is effective as anything other than a placebo indicates a failure of critical thinking.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
What you're describing is not a skeptical worldview.

It's not enough to just choose the "most reasonable" out of the options available at the time. The skeptical position says that if a claim doesn't meet its burden of proof, then it shouldn't be accepted... even if it's the most well-supported option available. In that situation, the skeptical - and IMO rational - approach is to say "I don't know."
From Wikipedia: Skepticism or scepticism is generally any questioning attitude or doubt towards one or more items of putative knowledge or belief.

This is not saying 'have no opinion without physical proof'. It's more saying don't assume any 'putative knowledge' is correct and to critically examine all claims with a 'questioning attitude'.
 

McBell

Unbound
I have never much cared for the label “atheism”. This is not just because of the baggage and connotations that come with it, but also because, as many have argued, it is a label that describes a negative. If we labelled ourselves just on what we did not believe, we’d be weighed down with having to call ourselves “A-communists” or “a-murderers” (not to equate those as being the same, of course). These labels should be used to affirm something about ourselves, not simply exclude certain positions.

Having pondered over this, I’ve concluded that “skeptic” is truly the best way to describe the very essence of scientific naturalism. Prior suggestions by other New Atheists such as “brights” does little inform others where people stand (in addition to being very condescending), whereas naming yourself a skeptic perfectly encompasses the heart of our position.

We are always on our toes when it comes to holding “faith” in something, and we do not submit to an unquestioning authority. We question basic assumptions, and make sure our conclusions are based on evidence and logic. It is of course true that faith plays a role in our outlook on life (by being optimistic, looking ahead, hoping for happiness etc.). We are all evolved primates, after all, and can never completely escape our irrational tendencies. All we can do is put in the effort to compensate for them. This is something which still clearly separates us from the great majority of religions, where not showing faith or questioning ultimate authority is seen as a threat.

The easiest example to show this is with Abraham being told by God to sacrifice his son. At the very last moment when Abraham is about to perform the sacrifice, God sends an angel to stay his hand, and the potential murderer is praised for his faith. Now, any skeptical mind can see that this is an immoral and wicked story. The main point here is not simply to murder, it is actually more sinister than that: it advocates complete servility. “Obey me without question. If I ask you to kill your own family, you must do so without hesitation” – these words jump right off the page. Religious apologists always counter this by pointing out that God stopped Abraham from performing the act. God is benevolent, after all, and would never allow something so evil to actually take place.

Despite this objection, the yoke of evil within this story remains unbroken. God’s benevolence or malevolence is not what makes this immoral; it is Abraham’s obedience. Even though murdering his son is counter to what a benevolent God would want, the story is saying that Abraham should still be willing to perform the act. He has to actually have the will in his heart to do this in order for his faith to be validated – which is the purpose of this.

I hope anyone reading is skeptical enough to know how immoral this is. If you do not, then consider any mentally ill person who hears such voices in their head claiming to be God. As a student of Criminology, I can ensure you that there are more than a handful of murder cases where this exact thing happens. The parent is suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness, and hears a voice claiming to be God telling them to kill their children. Now, according to this story in the Bible, any person of faith who hears of this murder case cannot believe the parent’s willingness to kill children because of faith was wrong. It is tragic that it was not actually God commanding it (and was thus not there to stop the parent at the last moment), but the willingness to obey this evil command was not the issue. In the same way that Abraham would’ve killed his son if no one interfered, this parent has shown the same faith by killing their child - so says the honest religious person.

All counter arguments to this are unsatisfactory. The idea that “the parent should’ve known it was a false God” or “we’d know through God’s divine grace if he was really speaking to us” are not enough. Not only does this assume the act wasn’t commanded by God (something which may never be completely impossible for someone religious), but it also tries to have it both ways by defending a story which demands complete obedience to God’s word – except in those cases where you should be skeptical. After all, if the person knew it was the true God and knew that God is benevolent, and then there would be no need to “prove your faith” to begin with because the person would never believe the act was going to happen. The story of Abraham clearly tells us that obedience to God’s word should override all skepticism.

Are you starting to realize how faith can twist you into believing blatantly evil things? No reasonable person would ever consider this line of thinking as moral, nor would they approve of mental gymnastics to excuse these lessons as justified. Any sane person listening to an attempt at justifying this should respond by incredulously asking “Are you serious?”

So a person of faith must ask themselves: is God asking for children to be killed, or is this more likely the result of mental illness? If you say the latter, then it must be asked: wouldn’t it also be more likely that Abraham was mentally ill?

This example shows clearly what separates skeptics from religious obedience. Indeed, the word “Islam” itself can be translated as “submission”. Skeptics such as myself hold a very firm position: were it not for these calls for faith and obedience to a divine ruler, most would see that religious dogma is unreasonable. We now live in a world where robust scientific explanations are plentiful. Merely letting go of our religious biases and embracing these tested and proven discoveries quickly reveal an absence of God in the universe (or the lack of a necessity to impose one, at the very least).

This also works well to counter those that point to Stalin or Mao Zedong as examples of atheistic evil. “These men abandoned religion,” The apologists proclaims, “and they went on to kill millions of people. This shows the danger of abandoning God’s word.” No, it shows the danger of humans as ultimate authority instead of a religion. The lesson here is not to abandon skepticism, but to underline it. Submission to a dictator is as dangerous as submission to a God – and both have caused many deaths. The beauty of labeling yourself as a “skeptic” is that you are not defending every atheist good or bad, but a mindset that always searches for evidence and uses logic rather than faith and servitude.

My position is that the moment you apply a bit of skepticism and not fall into the demands that you be afraid or cower; that’s the moment you realize that the emperor has no clothes (whether the emperor is religion or a dictator). This is not a triumph of atheism; it is a triumph of skepticism. Critical thinking is a virtue to us, and to think freely and without restraint is our paradise. Nothing in this world is beyond being questioned, because no one in this world is perfect – that not only goes for the people we question, but also to ourselves. Since we are all imperfect, we must try to be as skeptical as we can.

Apologies for the length.
Thoughts? Opinions?
What value do you see in religious obedience?
Seems to me you are "arguing" against your preconceived notion of what god would and would not tell his followers...

A preconceived notion I am skeptical of.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You're missing the next critical step before acceptance: discarding the claims that aren't up to snuff.
I follow that critical step too being an open-minded skeptic having no agenda but to best follow the evidence. For physically unprovable things, I judge likelihood and reasonableness with all evidence and argumentation considered and don't claim proof, but have an opinion on likelihood.

But differences of opinion can occur among those practicing skepticism.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I follow that critical step too
You've often described yourself as not doing that; you've talked about accepting the option you consider best supported out of the ones you've considered, even if that option hasn't passed the d bar of reasonable acceptance.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
You've often described yourself as not doing that; you've talked about accepting the option you consider best supported out of the ones you've considered, even if that option hasn't passed the d bar of reasonable acceptance.
If none of the options pass my d bar, I will say 'I am not really sure what is going on in this case'.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Skeptic or atheist? I call myself both, quite frequently. And both are quite accurate, when used correctly in context.

The real deal, for me, is this:
  1. There are things we know, in the epistemic sense
  2. There things we can surmise, for a variety of reasons ("reasons" being the operative word)
  3. There are things we do not know
I need be neither skeptical or a-whatever about that which I know epistemically. The ratio Pi is irrational. I don't have to doubt it. Gravity works, no question. I have a moustache, yep. On the negative side of "know," I know that there has never been a fifty-foot woman, that Superman doesn't exist, and that you cannot survive decapitation. I do not have to be Pi-ist, a Gravity-ist or a moustache-ist, nor an aGargantuan, an aSuperman, or a Headless Horsemanist for any of these things. Unnecessary, trite, says nothing of use.

But the REASON I don't have to be those things is because everybody else pretty much agrees with me. (Perhaps not about the moustache, until the meet me in person, but trust me, it's as real as Kris Kringle's beard in Miracle on 34th Street.)

The things I might surmise -- well, here we have more reason to argue, but at least we can argue based on some criteria upon which we can agree. We can examine economics and the market place, and come down as free-market capitalists or hard communists. Or anti-communists or anti-capitalist or anti-abortionist.

And notice, that here I do have legitimate reason to use the "ism/ist" formulation. I am skeptical about the claims of trickle-down economists, and very skeptical about the claims of communism

But then we get to the stuff we simply do not know, for which we can find no real handle on which to make a determination. A universe exists, and I am in it. What does that say about "God?" Nothing at all. Not any more than it says about turtles (all the way to the bottom) or Uranos or "the Big Bang was the first thing EVER!) (Yes, the BB is the first thing we can discern, but wherefore did it happen, what was before? Nothing, nada, ignorance.)

And now here, I get to make the negative claim. When somebody proposes "there's an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, self-necessary being that created it all for (name your own religion's) reasons," --- then I get to say: NO! You have simply zero reason for saying so, except your own imagination, or the imagination of somebody else who you've believed. And THEN -- this is the most important part -- if I hold you claim up to the light of reason and see how it actually fares in explaining what exists, as it exists, as we can know it, and if that claim fails to make any sense given what really is -- then I can be "a-" whatever it is.

And that's how you get to be an atheist.
 

Mickdrew

Member
Yes, misinterpretation. I made no comments about atheist/materialist ideologies - I was pointing out (like GA), that skepticism basically means critical thinking. As GA said, the term "skeptic" has been usurped by atheist/materialist ideologies as a synonym for itself. I disagree with that. Skepticism is not synonymous with any particular ideological position, atheistic, materialistic, or otherwise. Skepticism is an approach characterized by critical thinking, which may or may not be present in any particular atheist or materialist or theist or transtheist or spiritualist or pluralist or whatever. I object to using "skeptic" as a synonym for "atheist" or "materialist."
I literally addressed this exact point in my original reply to you.
There is no hijacking. There is a widespread view that Atheist materialism is the most appropriate position for a skeptic to take.
It certainly seems to have the most justification as far as I can see.


Again, you are judging it to not be "true" skepticism because most people don't reach the same conclusion as you by its method.

How did you not see this?
 

McBell

Unbound
Cute.
But you seem to be very selective in your skepticism.
Based upon what, exactly?
Are you going to be yet another who attempts to dictate to me what I think/feel/believe so they can attack their strawman with such vigor?

Please be so kind as to explain how you have not done what it seems to me you have done?

Or are you more content with the diversion tactic?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If I've equated skeptics with atheists, then the title of this thread is a curious choice.

I would argue that disbelief in a God is a natural result of skepticism, but there are plenty of atheists who disbelieve for a different reason.
A lack of interaction would be a start.

Atheism is just a response to theism.

Skepticism is healthy only in plausable but unsure scenarios. Theism can't qualify as plausable.
 

Mickdrew

Member
Based upon what, exactly?
Are you going to be yet another who attempts to dictate to me what I think/feel/believe so they can attack their strawman with such vigor?

Please be so kind as to explain how you have not done what it seems to me you have done?

Or are you more content with the diversion tactic?
No actually.
I was just going to point out how rather than using strong skepticism to question a claim, you have instead used it to question the judgement of that claim.
If you accept the claim (that God has talked to people), then this irony is even more pronounced.

A lack of interaction would be a start.

Atheism is just a response to theism.

Skepticism is healthy only in plausable but unsure scenarios. Theism can't qualify as plausable.
Are you saying theism is implausible?
 

McBell

Unbound
No actually.
I was just going to point out how rather than using strong skepticism to question a claim, you have instead used it to question the judgement of that claim.
If you accept the claim (that God has talked to people), then this irony is even more pronounced.
"instead"?
you assume to much
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Yes but different theologies are supported with different arguments.

Not really. Every argument for God falls under either logic, scripture or personal experience. The latter two can be reduced to a simply logic table. The words are different but the forms are the same.
 
Top