Rebirth

[zactak]

Hey everyone!

So, I've been studying a lot about Buddhism because I thoroughly enjoy it's philosophy. I was born and raised Christian. I stopped believing in Christianity because I didn't believe in a lot of the things the Bible said as there was no proof.

The hardest issue I am having with Buddhism is rebirthing. I've been reading articles about proof of it, however I'm a little skeptical. These questions may not be things people can answer, but I'm curious to get others opinions and experiences. Why can some people remember their past lives so vividly, while most people don't remember at all? Thanks!

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Hey everyone!

So, I've been studying a lot about Buddhism because I thoroughly enjoy it's philosophy. I was born and raised Christian. I stopped believing in Christianity because I didn't believe in a lot of the things the Bible said as there was no proof.

The hardest issue I am having with Buddhism is rebirthing. I've been reading articles about proof of it, however I'm a little skeptical. These questions may not be things people can answer, but I'm curious to get others opinions and experiences. Why can some people remember their past lives so vividly, while most people don't remember at all? Thanks!

This is assuming reincarnation is literal.

From Wikipedia:

The Buddha's concept was distinct, consistent with the common notion of a sequence of lives over a very long time but constrained by two core concepts: that there is no irreducible self tying these lives together (anattā) and that all compounded things are subject to dissolution, including all the components of the human person and personality (anicca).

Buddhist meditation teachers suggest that observation reveals consciousness as a sequence of conscious moments rather than a continuum of awareness. Each moment is an experience of an individual mind-state such as a thought, a memory, a feeling or a perception. A mind-state arises, exists and, being impermanent, ceases, following which the next mind-state arises. Thus the consciousness of a sentient being can be seen as a continuous series of birth and death of these mind-states. Rebirth is the persistence of this process.

There is no self than shares lives. He was basically saying "life moves on and despite your death the world lives by your actions", meaning what you do during life (your karma) will affect the rest of everyone's lives forever. Rebirth is about mental states, not literal transfer of one mind to another body.

 

[koan]

Scientists have proved nothing can be removed or added to the universe. This being the case, the spark that gave you life must continue elsewhere.

 

[Yeshe Dawa]

There is no self than shares lives. He was basically saying "life moves on and despite your death the world lives by your actions", meaning what you do during life (your karma) will affect the rest of everyone's lives forever. Rebirth is about mental states, not literal transfer of one mind to another body.

Hi Gjallarhorn!

I liked your explanation of rebirth, but I am not convinced that this is the interpretation held by many Buddhists. I am not Buddhist myself, so I can't speak with surety, but the Buddhist books that I have read seem to indicate something slightly different. While they agree that there is no inherent "self", they seem to suggest that a person's mindstream is continuous, and extends into the past into previous lives and forward into future lives.

True, the person in the future life isn't the person that is here now, but (the books I've read, anyway) say it is similar to how a 35 year old John Smith is not the 3 year old John Smith. They belong to the same mindstream, but the person of the 35 year old John Smith bears little or no resemblance (mentally) to the 3 year old, and he might not even remember being the 3 year old, but they are indeed the same mindstream.

The Wikipedia article says something similar to this: The consciousness in the new person is neither identical nor entirely different from that in the deceased but the two form a causal continuum or stream.

The books on Buddhism that I've read warn of not straying to the extremes of both absolutism and nihilism when trying to contemplate the emptiness of self. One that seemed to explain the concept fairly well is How to Free Your Mind by Thubten Chodron.

Based on what I've seen, I would have to respectfully disagree on your interpretation of rebirth as "life moves on and despite your death the world lives by your actions". While this is undoubtedly true, from what I understand I think that more was intended.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

 

[wmjbyatt]

Hey everyone!

So, I've been studying a lot about Buddhism because I thoroughly enjoy it's philosophy. I was born and raised Christian. I stopped believing in Christianity because I didn't believe in a lot of the things the Bible said as there was no proof.

The hardest issue I am having with Buddhism is rebirthing. I've been reading articles about proof of it, however I'm a little skeptical. These questions may not be things people can answer, but I'm curious to get others opinions and experiences. Why can some people remember their past lives so vividly, while most people don't remember at all? Thanks!

The internal variation inside Buddhism is as crazy as the internal variation inside Christendom. Some Buddhists accept reincarnation literally. However, it seems clear enough to me that Siddhartha Gautama recognized the inability of even his words to accurately transmit the Dharma, and thus he used the language that would best do so. Since the prevalent religion in India at the time was Hindu, it makes sense to use Hindu concepts (like reincarnation, karma, and samsara) to express this. Whether these notions are objectively true becomes irrelevant: they convey the needed information.

That having been said, I think it's wise to approach these kinds of things as inherently symbolic in nature. You will meet Buddhists who accept reincarnation literally. But it isn't necessary to do so in order to a) learn and grow from the Buddhadharma or even b) self-identify as Buddhist.

After hearing a Zen koan that mentioned reincarnation, a friend of mine once asked a Buddhist teacher at our school if Zen Buddhists believe in reincarnation. The teacher's response was, "Zen Buddhists think there are more important things to think about."

 

[Benhamine]

There is no self than shares lives. He was basically saying "life moves on and despite your death the world lives by your actions", meaning what you do during life (your karma) will affect the rest of everyone's lives forever. Rebirth is about mental states, not literal transfer of one mind to another body.

This is a fantastic explanation! I have been so torn trying to understand how one can believe in no permanent self and yet also believe in reincarnation. I do think that most tend to lean towards the literal reincarnation though. A great example of this is the Wild Fox Koan: Wild fox koan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have always just thought of it in a very real tangible physical reincarnation. In that my body, mind, etc. all is the product of the matter and energy around me coming together to form this being at this moment. At the end of my life (and literally throughout my life) that matter and energy will go back into the vat that is this world from which it came. In this sense it's very possible for that same matter and same energy to go into helping form another being. So in that sense I have always believed in reincarnation...but since that's not all of the same stuff that I am right now can I really call that me?...but I guess that's the point

-Benhamine

Edit: P.S. Love the story about the Zen Teacher!

 

[The Rev]

As a Buddhist, I have always had difficulty with this issue too. It seems, at least as I understand it, that belief in reincarnation is a kind of self-grasping. It's a belief that reflects the fears we have about losing the self, and offers a kind of resolution to that. However, this kind of attachment is precisely what Buddhism is trying to help us be free of.

Having said that, I appreciated reading Gjallarhorn's thoughts on the matter. It added to my perspective. Thanks.

:wheel:

 

[scottaleger]

Thanks for this , this is a great conversation about Rebirth

 

[Secret Chief]

The Access to Insight website is an online repository of the Pali Canon, accepted by all schools as the authentic word of the Buddha. It also contains articles and study guides. (The site is sub-titled Readings in Theravadan Buddhism because this Tradition is based exclusively on the Pali Canon).

On the right hand side of the home page of the website you can see Quick Guide> Tipitaka> Subject. If you click on Subject an alphabet appears. If you click on R and scroll down you will see Rebirth: various Suttas and articles. If you look for Reincarnation you'll see it's not mentioned. There's a reason for that

 

[The Rev]

Hi Gjallarhorn!

I liked your explanation of rebirth, but I am not convinced that this is the interpretation held by many Buddhists. I am not Buddhist myself, so I can't speak with surety, but the Buddhist books that I have read seem to indicate something slightly different. While they agree that there is no inherent "self", they seem to suggest that a person's mindstream is continuous, and extends into the past into previous lives and forward into future lives.

True, the person in the future life isn't the person that is here now, but (the books I've read, anyway) say it is similar to how a 35 year old John Smith is not the 3 year old John Smith. They belong to the same mindstream, but the person of the 35 year old John Smith bears little or no resemblance (mentally) to the 3 year old, and he might not even remember being the 3 year old, but they are indeed the same mindstream.

The Wikipedia article says something similar to this: The consciousness in the new person is neither identical nor entirely different from that in the deceased but the two form a causal continuum or stream.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

I practice Chan, and this is pretty close to how my Dharma teacher has explained it. The thing that still confuses me is interbeing. If everything is mind, and karmic forces are just like currents in the water, then every mindstream must be part of every other mindstream. This would make everyone a rebirth of everyone else, and every life a "past life" of each of us. IOW, how does one discern "his own" past lives from the whole, any more than one could discern the water of a past current from the rest of the sea?
:namaste

 

[Onkara]

I practice Chan, and this is pretty close to how my Dharma teacher has explained it. The thing that still confuses me is interbeing. If everything is mind, and karmic forces are just like currents in the water, then every mindstream must be part of every other mindstream. This would make everyone a rebirth of everyone else, and every life a "past life" of each of us. IOW, how does one discern "his own" past lives from the whole, any more than one could discern the water of a past current from the rest of the sea?
:namaste

Hi Rev,
A small question, why do you say that everything is mind? Is there a source stating that somewhere, as I would be interested to read it, please?

 

[Secret Chief]

Perhaps a reference to Yogacara philosophy?

 

[koan]

Two major philosophies run in Mahayana, Nagajuna (emptiness) and Asanga Yogacara (mind only). It's worth it to look into them. In Zen, we use mind only, though more as an expedient. We see the real nature of things as being empty.

 

[The Rev]

Hi Rev,
A small question, why do you say that everything is mind? Is there a source stating that somewhere, as I would be interested to read it, please?

I think what koan said pretty much sums it up. I don't have a specific book that I can point to, other than any good book on Zen, that breaks that idea down. It's just something that is taught by my teacher in his Dharma talks. It's a pretty fundamental idea of Ch'an (which is the Chinese school of Zen).
:namaste

 

[Onkara]

I think what koan said pretty much sums it up. I don't have a specific book that I can point to, other than any good book on Zen, that breaks that idea down. It's just something that is taught by my teacher in his Dharma talks. It's a pretty fundamental idea of Ch'an (which is the Chinese school of Zen).
:namaste

Thanks to you both, the answers are helpful.
There appears to be a hint of an explanation to your question in wikipedia based on Yogacara's doctrine of the store consciousness or eighth consciousness. No doubt it is explaind in more detail elsewhere, but here it is:

Link: Yogacara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The answer given by the Yogācārins, those that hold to the tenets of Yogācāra, was the store consciousness (Sanskrit: ālayavijñāna), also known as the basal, or eighth consciousness. It simultaneously acts as a storage place for karmic latencies and as a fertile matrix of predispositions that bring karma to a state of fruition. It may be ultimately traceable to the "luminous mind" mentioned once in the Āgamas. The likeness of this process to the cultivation of plants led to the creation of the metaphor of seeds (Sanskrit: bīja) to explain the way karma is stored in the eighth consciousness.

In the Yogācāra formulation, all experience without exception is said to result from the ripening of karma[18]--the seemingly external world is merely a "by-product" (adhipati-phala) of karma. The term vāsanā ("perfuming") is also used, and Yogācārins debated whether vāsāna and bija were essentially the same, the seeds were the effect of the perfuming, or whether the perfuming simply affected the seeds.[19] The type, quantity, quality and strength of the seeds determine where and how a sentient being will be reborn: one's race, sex, social status, proclivities, bodily appearance and so forth. The conditioning of the mind resulting from karma is called saṃskāra.[20] The store consciousness concept developed along with the Buddha nature doctrine and resolved into the concept of mindstream or the "consciousness-continuity" (Sanskrit: citta-santāna)[21] to avoid being denounced as running counter to the doctrine of emptiness (śūnyat&#257 and the tenets of selflessness (anātman).

Personally, I feel one must find an answer which satisifes the question arising in the mind. It is the quenching of the questions and doubts of the mind which lead to the stillness and insight.

In some way this is why the emptiness or anattā doctrine is also helpful, because it can halt the mind from spiralling in ontological doubt.

Here is a quote from the Pali Cannon, where a monk asks Buddha (the blessed one) on who it is that takes birth:

"Which birth, lord? And to whom does this birth belong?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said.

(Similarly with all the requisite conditions down to fabrications.)

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Could it be that reincarnation implies dualism or some ghost in the machine but rebirth not necessarily?

 

[Secret Chief]

Could it be that reincarnation implies dualism or some ghost in the machine but rebirth not necessarily?

I think it could! Nice point.

 

[Breathe]

Could it be that reincarnation implies dualism or some ghost in the machine but rebirth not necessarily?

It wouldn't work for dualism as many schools of Hinduism are not dualistic, and a "ghost in the machine" would be a rather strange way of looking at Hinduism's ātman.

This difference doesn't actually exist in Indian terminology.