As long as the state is in the marriage business, the voters will have a say about who can obtain a marriage license.
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Redefining Marriage and all that
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Draka
Wonder Woman
Doesn't mean they are right.
frubals, no truer words are spoken
daniegrace
Member
Hey newbie here just jumpin in on ya'lls conversation....i agree w/Draka
Haven't we learned that the people most vocally against granting equal rights to gays are also the ones with a secret same-sex lover
hahaha doth protests too much.........
Haven't we learned that the people most vocally against granting equal rights to gays are also the ones with a secret same-sex lover
hahaha doth protests too much.........
daniegrace
Member
what are frubals? thanks??
When people want to praise your posts or you want to give frubals, you click on that thing by the post number. If you go to your user CP, you can read them.
daniegrace
Member
thanks!!!
Any time. Warning, they are addicting.
McBell
Unbound
Until the issue is finally dealt with at the federal level.
I do not see it happening before the Presidential Election, though.
Something we agree on. The best the Clinton's ever done in 8 years was don't ask don't tell, so they don't have a much better track record. On the federal level sexual orientation has not even been recognised. Obama is for Civil unions, not same sex marriage and if McCain is president, nothing at all will happen at the federal level.
As recent as 1972, 60% of the United States population was opposed to interracial marriage. In some states that figure was certainly much higher. Do the demographics of racial discrimination affect the morality of it?
Personally I find it impossible to believe that such a high percentage of the American people were hateful evil bigots. Certainly some of them were driven by hate, but not 60%, that just doesnt make sense. But this doesnt change the fact that racial discrimination is a bigoted position. Many people historically opposed interracial marriage not because they were hateful, but because they were fearful, or because it is what their church or their family told them to do, or because they were just confused. It really doesnt matter why they supported such a bigoted position; it was still a bigoted position.
Now today as you say 75% of the people living in your state are taking the bigoted position of opposing equal rights for same sex couples. I dont believe for one minute that there could be such a large number of people living in your state who are truly motivated by hate, although some certainly are. Most are certainly motivated by fear, and are being mislead by the hatemongers. I am not saying that they are all bigots; I dont believe that they are. But they are supporting bigotry, no different than people whom at one time supported racial discrimination.
The morality of the situation does not change with the demographics, and it does not change when you cross the border. Racial discrimination was just as immoral in the times when it was more popular as it is today. And the morality of discrimination does not change when you cross the border to a place where the laws or the popular opinion are different. I live in a country in which there is no legal distinction between a marriage between a man and a woman, or between two men, or between two women. (We are still waiting for society to collapse, any day now I am sure)
(p.s. a gay gym teacher! Wow! What a concept! You could knock me over with a sledgehammer! Next you will tell me they have gay interior designers.)
Nofantôme profane;1070095 said:
I believe the issue is the word marriage. Many people like Obama's position that gives equal rights, just not state sanctioned marriage.
Was that comment necessary?
Nanda
Polyanna
(Actually, most of the men in gay porn are straight - the pay is that much better. They take viagra and have female "fluffers" on set. *Sings* "The more you know...")
I'm not going to ask you for a reference. I think I will just take your word on this one.
opcorn:
I just cant see any legitimate reason for having a separate word if you dont intend for them to be separate concepts. To differentiate is to discriminate. If there is no legal distinction, why make a legal distinction?
No, that is why it was a p.s. and in brackets.
Ask Obama why? By the way, who would you like to see be the next president of the united states?fantôme profane;1070142 said:
Smoke
Done here.
I'm so thoroughly sick of this subject. Not because it's not important, but because it's the same old thing over and over. So I'm going to lay this out for you, and I'm going to tell the you truth.
If you're opposed to same-sex marriage, you're a bigot. Period. Thinking that a whole class of people is deserving of lesser rights than other citizens is practically the definition of bigotry. It doesn't mean you're not a nice person otherwise; it doesn't mean you don't have good intentions; it doesn't mean anything except that you are a bigot down deep in your rotten little heart. It doesn't matter how much you love people of other races, and it doesn't matter how much you love people of other religions; it's still bigotry even if there's only one group of people you're bigoted against. If you can't help being a bigot, at least be man enough or woman enough to look into your heart and see what's there.
If you think that allowing everybody equal rights under the law, including equal access to legal marriage between two consenting adults, is "redefining" marriage, then you are an idiot. I don't think many people really believe that it really is redefining marriage; for most of them, that's just a rhetorical device. Legally speaking, same-sex marriage is identical to opposite-sex marriage. But if you really, sincerely believe that allowing everybody to marry an adult, consenting spouse of his or her choice is "redefining" marriage, then you really are an idiot. You are not entitled to have a conversation with an intelligent person, and you're probably not capable of it, either.
If you believe that your god will bless you in some way because you have, due to your bigotry and stupidity, helped to cause real and genuine harm to other people who have done no harm to you, then either your god is a fool, or you are.
If you think allowing other people to follow their own conscience is a threat to your religion, and that you must use the law to enforce the teachings of your religion, then your either religion is weak and contemptible, or you are.
If you call yourself a follower of Jesus, and yet think it part of your duty to make sure that other people are not treated as you would be treated, then you are a hypocrite and a liar.
This year, I've seen a lot of Mormon anger over the things that have been said about their church by Evangelical Republicans, and at first I didn't get it. How could they be so angry over such innocuous remarks? So people think your religion is a cult; so what? Where is all this anger coming from? But after a while, I understood. Mormons are angry over the way people are talking about them, because THEY'RE NOT USED TO IT. They have no idea what it means to be demonized by half the country every day of every year of their lives. They don't understand that what has been done and said against them in this campaign is nothing to a queer person. They don't understand that their own church has done far worse to us. They get one tiny hint of a taste of what it's like to be gay in America, and it enrages them. And it should.
It's amusing to see how people hate Fred Phelps now that he's targeting straight folks. But let me ask you this, if it makes you mad when Phelps and his little cult of hate picket a soldier's funeral, or Coretta King's funeral, if you think it's wrong for Phelps to act the way he does, tell me one thing: Where, Christian Americans, was your rage when Phelps was only targeting us?
Christians used to tell me, "I don't agree with what he's doing, but I understand why he's doing it." What else could they say? What does Phelps say? He's teaching the Bible, he's standing up for God, he's bearing witness for God, he's warning of judgment to come if you don't repent, and his message is so important that it overrides any right you might have to privacy or respect or dignity. He's saying the same things to you that you've been saying to us. The Pope is a little like Fred Phelps. So were Jerry Falwell and Gordon Hinckley and James Kennedy. Pat Robertson is a little like Fred Phelps, and so are T.D. Jakes and Mike Huckabee, Paula White and Mother Angelica, Tim and Beverly LaHaye, and so is your preacher and so are you, until you can say and believe that every person -- even a person like me -- in America deserves exactly the same rights and respect you do.
Fred Phelps offends you? Imagine that everywhere you went, every day of your life, there was somebody like Phelps. Imagine you had to face Phelps at school, and at your job, and in your church, and on your street, and in your parents' house, and even in the houses of people who call themselves your friends -- not once in a while, mind you, but every day of your life. How angry would you be then? Can you even begin to understand what it's like to be gay in America? Can you even try to imagine how loving, and humble, and patient, and forgiving gay people have to be, every day, to be able to be civil to you? To care about you? To like you, and even respect you, in spite of it all? But we do it. We do it every day, everywhere we go, and you still you dare, in your pride and your bigotry and your stupidity, to think you're better than we are. And still we care about you. We're so used to it that we don't even feel it that deeply anymore. Some of us, the most weak and pitiful of us, even think you're right, because that seems less horrible than believing that so many people, even people you love and people you depend on, would treat you this way every day of your life if you weren't really some kind of horrible freak.
I'd like to be able to tell you, Christian Americans, that Fred Phelps is a mirror. I'd like to be able to tell you that if you don't like what you see when you look at Fred Phelps, you ought to ask yourself why. But I can't. You're not exactly like Fred Phelps; you're just a little like him. Fred Phelps is better than you.
Fred Phelps is better than you because he does less harm than you. He puts his bigotry on picket signs, but you put yours on the ballot. Phelps offends people, but you cause real harm to millions of people.
Fred Phelps is better than you because he's more honest than you. Fred Phelps calls hate, hate, but you call hate, love. Fred Phelps knows and says that what he's doing is hateful, but you do great harm and convince yourselves you do it out of love.
Fred Phelps is better than you because he's smarter than you. Fred Phelps knows he's being offensive and provocative, but you say things every bit as stupid and bigoted as the things Fred Phelps says, and then smile in our faces and honestly expect us to respect your opinion.
Do you want to know what the unforgivable sin is? Jesus thought it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but Jesus was wrong. Christians know better than Jesus knew -- I can tell because they never do what he said to do, but they're still sure of their righteousness -- and Christians can forgive anyone but an unrepentant queer. Episcopalians are so liberal that they don't even care if their bishops are atheists, but if somebody in the Episcopal Church says maybe we ought to treat queers kind of like regular people, then all hell breaks loose. Congregations split up, and new, angry websites are established, and bishops and priests haul each other into court and make statements to the press about it. The United Church of Christ is the single most liberal mainline Christian church in America, the first to ordain gay clergy, the firmest in defending gay rights, proud to endorse same-sex marriage on the national level, but even in the United Church of Christ they hold that on the Association level, and on the local level, it's perfectly valid and perfectly right, to exclude queers from the life of the congregation. Even the United Church of Christ thinks this treating queers like people is something that's just a matter of opinion, and a matter of taste, and that all tastes and opinions about equality are equally valid. If you belong to a Christian church, the only thing you can say in defense of the way you treat us is that Muslims treat us even worse.
Fred Phelps is smarter than you because he knows this isn't "just politics." He knows this isn't just about differences of opinion. He knows this isn't just about somebody's interpretation of the Bible. This is about people's lives. Autodidact's life, and my life, and the lives of tens of millions of people who treat you better every day of their lives than you have ever treated them.
So, Christian Americans, you want to know that truth about same-sex marriage? I've told you the truth. I don't expect you to listen to it, and I don't expect you to understand it. You listen so little, and you understand even less. But at least if you've made it this far you've heard the truth for once in your lives.
If you're opposed to same-sex marriage, you're a bigot. Period. Thinking that a whole class of people is deserving of lesser rights than other citizens is practically the definition of bigotry. It doesn't mean you're not a nice person otherwise; it doesn't mean you don't have good intentions; it doesn't mean anything except that you are a bigot down deep in your rotten little heart. It doesn't matter how much you love people of other races, and it doesn't matter how much you love people of other religions; it's still bigotry even if there's only one group of people you're bigoted against. If you can't help being a bigot, at least be man enough or woman enough to look into your heart and see what's there.
If you think that allowing everybody equal rights under the law, including equal access to legal marriage between two consenting adults, is "redefining" marriage, then you are an idiot. I don't think many people really believe that it really is redefining marriage; for most of them, that's just a rhetorical device. Legally speaking, same-sex marriage is identical to opposite-sex marriage. But if you really, sincerely believe that allowing everybody to marry an adult, consenting spouse of his or her choice is "redefining" marriage, then you really are an idiot. You are not entitled to have a conversation with an intelligent person, and you're probably not capable of it, either.
If you believe that your god will bless you in some way because you have, due to your bigotry and stupidity, helped to cause real and genuine harm to other people who have done no harm to you, then either your god is a fool, or you are.
If you think allowing other people to follow their own conscience is a threat to your religion, and that you must use the law to enforce the teachings of your religion, then your either religion is weak and contemptible, or you are.
If you call yourself a follower of Jesus, and yet think it part of your duty to make sure that other people are not treated as you would be treated, then you are a hypocrite and a liar.
This year, I've seen a lot of Mormon anger over the things that have been said about their church by Evangelical Republicans, and at first I didn't get it. How could they be so angry over such innocuous remarks? So people think your religion is a cult; so what? Where is all this anger coming from? But after a while, I understood. Mormons are angry over the way people are talking about them, because THEY'RE NOT USED TO IT. They have no idea what it means to be demonized by half the country every day of every year of their lives. They don't understand that what has been done and said against them in this campaign is nothing to a queer person. They don't understand that their own church has done far worse to us. They get one tiny hint of a taste of what it's like to be gay in America, and it enrages them. And it should.
It's amusing to see how people hate Fred Phelps now that he's targeting straight folks. But let me ask you this, if it makes you mad when Phelps and his little cult of hate picket a soldier's funeral, or Coretta King's funeral, if you think it's wrong for Phelps to act the way he does, tell me one thing: Where, Christian Americans, was your rage when Phelps was only targeting us?
Christians used to tell me, "I don't agree with what he's doing, but I understand why he's doing it." What else could they say? What does Phelps say? He's teaching the Bible, he's standing up for God, he's bearing witness for God, he's warning of judgment to come if you don't repent, and his message is so important that it overrides any right you might have to privacy or respect or dignity. He's saying the same things to you that you've been saying to us. The Pope is a little like Fred Phelps. So were Jerry Falwell and Gordon Hinckley and James Kennedy. Pat Robertson is a little like Fred Phelps, and so are T.D. Jakes and Mike Huckabee, Paula White and Mother Angelica, Tim and Beverly LaHaye, and so is your preacher and so are you, until you can say and believe that every person -- even a person like me -- in America deserves exactly the same rights and respect you do.
Fred Phelps offends you? Imagine that everywhere you went, every day of your life, there was somebody like Phelps. Imagine you had to face Phelps at school, and at your job, and in your church, and on your street, and in your parents' house, and even in the houses of people who call themselves your friends -- not once in a while, mind you, but every day of your life. How angry would you be then? Can you even begin to understand what it's like to be gay in America? Can you even try to imagine how loving, and humble, and patient, and forgiving gay people have to be, every day, to be able to be civil to you? To care about you? To like you, and even respect you, in spite of it all? But we do it. We do it every day, everywhere we go, and you still you dare, in your pride and your bigotry and your stupidity, to think you're better than we are. And still we care about you. We're so used to it that we don't even feel it that deeply anymore. Some of us, the most weak and pitiful of us, even think you're right, because that seems less horrible than believing that so many people, even people you love and people you depend on, would treat you this way every day of your life if you weren't really some kind of horrible freak.
I'd like to be able to tell you, Christian Americans, that Fred Phelps is a mirror. I'd like to be able to tell you that if you don't like what you see when you look at Fred Phelps, you ought to ask yourself why. But I can't. You're not exactly like Fred Phelps; you're just a little like him. Fred Phelps is better than you.
Fred Phelps is better than you because he does less harm than you. He puts his bigotry on picket signs, but you put yours on the ballot. Phelps offends people, but you cause real harm to millions of people.
Fred Phelps is better than you because he's more honest than you. Fred Phelps calls hate, hate, but you call hate, love. Fred Phelps knows and says that what he's doing is hateful, but you do great harm and convince yourselves you do it out of love.
Fred Phelps is better than you because he's smarter than you. Fred Phelps knows he's being offensive and provocative, but you say things every bit as stupid and bigoted as the things Fred Phelps says, and then smile in our faces and honestly expect us to respect your opinion.
Do you want to know what the unforgivable sin is? Jesus thought it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but Jesus was wrong. Christians know better than Jesus knew -- I can tell because they never do what he said to do, but they're still sure of their righteousness -- and Christians can forgive anyone but an unrepentant queer. Episcopalians are so liberal that they don't even care if their bishops are atheists, but if somebody in the Episcopal Church says maybe we ought to treat queers kind of like regular people, then all hell breaks loose. Congregations split up, and new, angry websites are established, and bishops and priests haul each other into court and make statements to the press about it. The United Church of Christ is the single most liberal mainline Christian church in America, the first to ordain gay clergy, the firmest in defending gay rights, proud to endorse same-sex marriage on the national level, but even in the United Church of Christ they hold that on the Association level, and on the local level, it's perfectly valid and perfectly right, to exclude queers from the life of the congregation. Even the United Church of Christ thinks this treating queers like people is something that's just a matter of opinion, and a matter of taste, and that all tastes and opinions about equality are equally valid. If you belong to a Christian church, the only thing you can say in defense of the way you treat us is that Muslims treat us even worse.
Fred Phelps is smarter than you because he knows this isn't "just politics." He knows this isn't just about differences of opinion. He knows this isn't just about somebody's interpretation of the Bible. This is about people's lives. Autodidact's life, and my life, and the lives of tens of millions of people who treat you better every day of their lives than you have ever treated them.
So, Christian Americans, you want to know that truth about same-sex marriage? I've told you the truth. I don't expect you to listen to it, and I don't expect you to understand it. You listen so little, and you understand even less. But at least if you've made it this far you've heard the truth for once in your lives.
Well I am a Canadian, so it is not up to me. I am just happy to see the current one go. Hillary or Obama would either be fine. I dont even mind McCain too much. I will say that I much respected Dennis Kusinage (sp?) as he was the only one in either party who had the courage and moral fortitude to come out in favour of same-sex marriage.