rojse
RF Addict
If there were no women, there would be no Girls on Trampolines. And if there were no Girls on Trampolines, imagine what sort of anarchistic chaos the world would descend to...
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Redefining Marriage
- Thread starter rojse
- Start date
If there were no women, there would be no Girls on Trampolines. And if there were no Girls on Trampolines, imagine what sort of anarchistic chaos the world would descend to...
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
The man has a point.
antonio
Member
Inspite of all the changes that the legal definition of marriage has gone through, the constant between them can't really be ignored. Throughout time, one thing has never changed: "man and woman." Religious and racial prohibitions may have collapsed, but the underlying definition of marriage--the one constant--has always been the union of man and woman.
That's like preaching to the Tsunami, that the ocean has always remained in the ocean. There is no boundary to the oceans and there is no boundary to love. Same sex relations have been around in every country and society and religion for hundreds of thousands of years. Hets have screwed up marriage. Once screwed up, they got all sorts of grants, programs and legislation and tax incentatives to shore up a a failing institution. It hasn't worked. Attend to the log in your own eye before you get your panties all knotted up about same sex marriage--translated it means, religion is between you and God,stop trying to use it to control other people's lives.
God bless Libertarians--"my hands are full enough trying to govern my own life."
antonio:rainbow1:
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Fine post, Antonio.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Yes, I know, but none of that is specific to Mormons. Most of the population of America knows that smoking, drugs, etc. are bad. It's not that they are any wiser than anyone else. They just choose to abstain from many parts of life just for a longer life. I'd be willing to bet there are several other groups who have average lifespans at least as long as Mormons.
My only problem is with saying that Mormons are wiser or better than others because they have longer average lifespans due to these things. They are neither wiser or better than others, IMO.
misanthropic_clown
Active Member
Knowledge is not wisdom; arguably the Mormon 'wisdom' is to actually apply the knowledge of the potential health risks of drugs/alcohol/etc and thus achieve a greater lifespan.
As dull as it appears you think that not drinking or smoking or doing drugs is, I don't really think we are missing out much from what I observe whenever I go out with drinking friends. (Mind you, as students they are probably hardly reflective of the sensible drinker
)
Nanda
Polyanna
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
How does the Mormon church feel about Jesus' conjuration and consumption of wine?
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
You are correct. That means nothing here. We aren't looking for opinions. We are looking for facts, studies, or anything scientific to back up those opinions. You have told us your opinion, but that's nt enough. Showing us someone else who holds the same opinion doesn't help at all.
This is an honest two-way dialogue. You assert your position and try to back it up. Others assert the opposite position and back it up, along with refuting your arguments. You are right, though, any source you give that doesn't favor gay marriage is probably unacceptable, because the only reason not to favor it is because of an irrational bias. There simply is no good rational argument against gay marriage.
And, BTW, it doesn't mean it's garbage. It just means any facts presented in it in reference to something like homosexuality are probably either not facts or are intentionally misleading.
misanthropic_clown
Active Member
I don't think we particularly care that much. The Word of Wisdom was applied a while after the start of the church as a guideline, and was not compulsory until the time of Brigham Young, our second prophet.
That is indicative that the message of total abstinence from alcohol is something of a modern issue, though there are a few scriptures throughout the bible which condemn the use of strong drinks (in the case of royalty, if I remember rightly) and drunkenness.
I would argue that it is because alcohol is a lot more potent as a recreational activity in modern times. I have also heard it argued that it is because the alcohol content of our alcoholic drinks are far higher than would have been present in those days, but I don't know of any data to support that.
Edit: now I do - the process of distillation was not in action until far after the time of Jesus
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Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I understand. I just don't think it's wisdom. I think it's one opinion of how to live. I don't think people haven't figured out how to abstain from those vices (although many haven't, of course). I think it's more that people would rather have some vices that they feel make life more enjoyable, or at least give them different experiences. I think it's more of a conscious decision to try the vices that might shorten their lives as opposed to trying for the longest length of tiem possible. I know that's the case for me.
At a certain point stuff just becomes stupid. But it's fun to try things, and it makes life more interesting, IMO, as long as you don't go overboard with it. I think the things that Mormons are opposed to are worth it. As I've said, I'd rather live 75 years, and get to drink, party, smoke, have lots of sex, etc., than live 83 years of a life that I feel is repressed.
As dull as it appears you think that not drinking or smoking or doing drugs is, I don't really think we are missing out much from what I observe whenever I go out with drinking friends. (Mind you, as students they are probably hardly reflective of the sensible drinker
You are correct. Students (I assume college) are not reflective of the real fun of drinking. They tend to take it too far. Although, there can be a certain amusement obtained from telling old "war stories" about how drunk you got this time, or that time. I still wouldn't recommend that so much, though.
Alceste
Vagabond
Try looking up "fermentation" - History of wine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
6000-5000 BC.
Take it from me, you can get proper drunk on wine. I'm doing it right now.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Because since we're all Mormons here, we all follow this scripture.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
hmmm...nothing in there about homosexuality that I can see.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Rules prohibit me from fruballing Father Heathen for sharing the scripture of Suess with us. And while we're citing scripture, let us remember:
Have you done these things? You should.
These things are fun, and fun is good.
Have you done these things? You should.
These things are fun, and fun is good.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
NO, it implies naturalness. Two different arguments.
Of course it's the natural order of things. That doesn't make it good, just natural.
Sez who? Not nature, apparently. btw, what century are you writing in? Are you under the impression that affecting a Victorian style of prose makes it more effective? Actually it makes it comical. If your point is that homosexuality is not reproductive, yeah, we knew that. Neither is 99% of the sex in the world.
Troublemane
Well-Known Member
Let me ask you then, is it possible to choose who you are going to love? Or is it something that happens out of your control? And if so, isnt it "natural"?
misanthropic_clown
Active Member
Yes, I recognise that you can still get drunk on wine, but when you compare the alcohol content of wines to the alcohol content of the drinks that came from distillation technology - you enter into a realm of drink that is used for the sole purpose of becoming very drunk (as a student often does) as opposed to a more social drunk more on the scale of tipsy. You don't see vodka at the dinner table.
Of course, one could drink a lot of wine, or just a little bit of stronger drink, but I think the tendancy is still there from what I have observed. People (again I must admit I am generalising with students) often go out with the express intent of getting drunk. I think that is the kind of behaviour the church seeks to prevent with the word of wisdom.
That is not to say alcohol cannot be enjoyed in moderation without consequence, just that perhaps the magnitude of possible consequences of irresponsibility with alcohol make it worth restricting those who would have no problem with it for the sake of those who would.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
cite?
Alceste
Vagabond
Speak for yourself!
Believe you me, people who go out with the express intention of getting drunk are not dissuaded if only wine or beer is available. You should have seen the university ski trip I went on where a vomit trough had to be dug in the snow to prepare for the beer relay.
In all seriousness, though, I think you may be misunderstanding how "spirits" (distilled alcohol) are generally used by those with an intention to get hammered. For the most part, they are mixed with juices, sodas, tonic water or some other liquid to bring the alcohol content down to a similar level as a glass of wine or a pint of beer. General rule: 1 glass of wine = 1 pint of beer = 1 vodka and tonic (or a shot).
Mixing is usually where the trouble ensues. For some obscure, unknown reason 1 glass of wine + 1 pint of beer + 1 vodka and tonic does not equal 3 pints of beer, as any experienced drinker will tell you.
Well, I certainly disagree. I believe in freedom, and a big part of that is acknowledging the fundamental right of people like the students you know to learn for themselves what happens when you have three pints of lager and two shots of tequila and a couple cement mixers, and how it differs from what happens when you just have 7 shots of tequila or 7 pints of beer.