Redefining religion for our modern world: Can we find a balance

[challupa]

I found an article today from the Chicago Tribune which provides a little insight into where Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all spawned from -- and how it relates to what's been happening in Iraq the last few years. It's a real tragedy.

The Mandaean religion has been all but wiped out due to the war over there.

You'll have to google it, I apparently can't post a link because I haven't posted enough posts!

Is this the article?

'This is one of the world's oldest religions, and it is going to die.' -- chicagotribune.com

It is sad to see happen, but I think it is all too common. I don't see an end to the intolerance as long as humanity holds the opinion that other people of other religions are infidels or sinners. Brought to a logical conclusion, this type of circular thinking means that everyone alive is an infidel or sinner because there is always some group that has labeled another group as such, just like they have labelled the first group too. Who is right in this never ending oneupmanship (or I guess I should call it oneupgodship). The Baha'i in Iran are another group that are having big problems too. However, they are a larger group worldwide with more flexible rules regarding marriage and conversion than the above group appears to be.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

The almost universal flaw in different relgions is the followers' belief that their religion is right while other religions are wrong. In my mind, this is one of the biggest obstacles our world has to overcome if we want to live harmoniously. Only a few religions respect other religions, believe in a united humanity, and try to live these beliefs."

To accept this, what is perhaps a "liberal humanist" conception of religion, is to really forgo the question of truth, which I am not personally prepared to do. There has to be another way to pursue harmony without surrendering the integrity of the pursuit for truth and the authentic faith founded on it.

Were the religions simply to give up their claims to presenting the truth and ciphon off their doctrines and creeds to the realm of subjectivity and personal preference, I believe religion would essentially die, become merely cultic and ultimately worthless.

 

[LuisDantas]

Were the religions simply to give up their claims to presenting the truth and ciphon off their doctrines and creeds to the realm of subjectivity and personal preference, I believe religion would essentially die, become merely cultic and ultimately worthless.

Oriental religions' history suggests otherwise, however.

 

[challupa]

To accept this, what is perhaps a "liberal humanist" conception of religion, is to really forgo the question of truth, which I am not personally prepared to do. There has to be another way to pursue harmony without surrendering the integrity of the pursuit for truth and the authentic faith founded on it.

Were the religions simply to give up their claims to presenting the truth and ciphon off their doctrines and creeds to the realm of subjectivity and personal preference, I believe religion would essentially die, become merely cultic and ultimately worthless.

I don't think the author is suggesting you give up your religion or your comforting beliefs. I believe what she is saying is give up the need to silence other's beliefs. If you wish to be respected for your beliefs then it is harmonious and respectful to do the same for others also. The current state of affairs is religions jostling for supremacy and killing in the name of God. I don't think any all powerful, all merciful, all forgiving, all knowing being needs us doing that for it/her/him. I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever. If we can make the world tolerant of each other then we can all live instead of having to fear walking down the road to school because some religious group who doesn't want women learning something, throws battery acid in their faces. This kind of thing does not make sense because these are the same people that are wanting to be treated with respect for their beliefs too. Am I making any sense.....

 

[challupa]

Oriental religions' history suggests otherwise, however.

Yes, good point.

 

[autonomous1one1]

Yes I have read Eckhart's books and I also followed his 10 weeks with Oprah. I quite enjoyed it. However, I viewed some videos of his talks at other occasions, and I was a little dismayed at how sarcastic and condescending he got at times. Maybe I have a wrong view of what it means to be egoless as he purports to be, but it seems to me that sarcasm etc. would not be there for someone without an ego. What do you think?

Greetings. Yes, that would be dissappointing. Sacrasm and condescension that put one above others would not be consistent with his expressed view on ego nor on the oneness with all in Enlightenment. My readings and viewings from Eckhart have not surfaced any hint of those kinds of negativities (yet) - if you have a link, will check it out. Of course, one is always limited by one's own wisdom in bringing Enlightened being, nondual wisdom, into the dualistic views of others regardless of intention.

 

[timjamz]

Is this the article?

'This is one of the world's oldest religions, and it is going to die.' -- chicagotribune.com

That's it! What strikes me most about it is this group of people (supposedly) have held their beliefs since the "beginning," meaning the story of Adam. I would LOVE to hear what they really think about things through the stories they've passed down.

You're right about all the human infighting over religion -- it's pointless. If the world's major religion (Christianity) were to practice WHO it preaches, the world would know that God is love, plain and simple. To know god, experience heaven, etc etc, we must live in a spirit of love. Otherwise, we live in "hell," in the spirit of the "evil one" (aka, self-centered thinking).

 

[YmirGF]

"Love, forgiveness, caring and generosity are important core beliefs for many religions. Loyalty to one God is uniquely important to Christians, Muslims and Jews. Eastern religions respect all of nature and believe everything is interconnected. The almost universal flaw in different relgions is the followers' belief that their religion is right while other religions are wrong. In my mind, this is one of the biggest obstacles our world has to overcome if we want to live harmoniously. Only a few religions respect other religions, believe in a united humanity, and try to live these beliefs."

I think one of the major impediments to harmonious co-existence is that unless everyone is simultaneously on exactly the same page, any such endeavor will be doomed to failure. It's all very well to say that simply being respectful of each others ideas will work out the wrinkles but I think we are only fooling ourselves. Imo, resisting confrontation of our differences is the problem. I suspect that it is because we are afraid that we will lose ground in light of cold, calculated objectivity.

We have this namby-pamby idea that "everything is beautiful - in its own way" and I'm sorry to break it to people, but that just isn't so. There are rather large chunks of very ugly thinking, disguised as religious wisdom, and we do ourselves a great injustice in pretending that fact out of existence.

Okay, what I am asking people is what do you think of that paragraph? Is there any hope that religions will accept each other? Do you think they will ever accept each other?

I have no reason to assume that religions SHOULD get along and find the universalist approach to be extremely naive -- just short of dangerous thinking -- if the truth be told. In light of this, I would have to say that the various religions not only WILL not come together, but quite necessarily, CANNOT come together. It simply is not in their individual best interests to do so. Perhaps it is time to bury religion and get on with pragmatic realism.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would like see what people think of the following excerpt from the book named for the above subject title:

"Love, forgiveness, caring and generosity are important core beliefs for many religions. Loyalty to one God is uniquely important to Christians, Muslims and Jews. Eastern religions respect all of nature and believe everything is interconnected. The almost universal flaw in different relgions is the followers' belief that their religion is right while other religions are wrong. In my mind, this is one of the biggest obstacles our world has to overcome if we want to live harmoniously. Only a few religions respect other religions, believe in a united humanity, and try to live these beliefs."

Okay, what I am asking people is what do you think of that paragraph? Is there any hope that religions will accept each other? Do you think they will ever accept each other?

We cannot redefine all religious beliefs. You either believe something or you don't. Thinking that everyone can subscribe to the latest designer politically correct belief of the day may have the best of intentions but is totally nieve.

Lets all join in singing, we are the world..........

 

[challupa]

I think of the major impediments to harmonious co-existence is that unless everyone is simultaneously on exactly the same page, any such endeavor will be doomed to failure. It's all very well to say that simply being respectful of each others ideas will work out the wrinkles but I think we are only fooling ourselves. Imo, resisting confrontation of our differences is the problem. I suspect that it is because we are afraid that we will lose ground in light of cold, calculated objectivity. .

Well if our long held beliefs cannot withstand the "light" then maybe we need to be honest with ourselves and realize they may not be true and are something that do not serve us (or humanity) and then let them go.

We have this namby-pamby idea that "everything is beautiful - in its own way" and I'm sorry to break it to people, but that just isn't so. There are rather large chunks of very ugly thinking, disguised as religious wisdom, and we do ourselves a great injustice in pretending that fact out of existence..

I agree with you, everything is not beautiful, but I also think we don't work very hard at trying to change that. Clinging to beliefs that do not serve us because they are something we were taught to believe, doesn't seem too wise imo. People really don't question what they believe. Either that or they too afraid to question what they believe. But I believe we have come to a crossroads in life when we can no longer allow ourselves to stick our heads in the sand and pretend everything is okay. We have the technology to obliterate ourselves, the world and everything on it but we have not matured enough to handle that power. If we don't grow up, we likely will not survive.

I have no reason to assume that religions SHOULD get along and find the universalist approach to be extremely naive -- just short of dangerous thinking -- if the truth be told. In light of this, I would have to say that the various religions not only WILL not come together, but quite necessarily, CANNOT come together. It simply is not in their individual best interests to do so. Perhaps it is time to bury religion and get on with pragmatic realism.

That is actually what the author is saying in many cases in this book. She says that if we cannot let go of the negative teachings of our religions then maybe it's time to let go of religion. However, I think she realizes that this is not likely to happen and is trying to get people to revisit their beliefs in an honest and pragmatic way and ask themselves if they feel it is wise to continue on the course they are on. We can never change behaviors until we change beliefs. That is the theme I see most prevalent through out the book...

 

[challupa]

We cannot redefine all religious beliefs. You either believe something or you don't. Thinking that everyone can subscribe to the latest designer politically correct belief of the day may have the best of intentions but is totally nieve.

Lets all join in singing, we are the world..........

Yes, we are the world, how long would you like it to exist??? Seriously though, I cannot agree that beliefs cannot be changed. History of religion shows us just how flexible religion really is. When the Roman Church tried to convert the Celts to Christianity they knew they had to work with the existing religion. They took the temples and priestesses and turned them into nunneries and nuns. They also let the people venerate at the same wells as they had done, they just put up signs telling them who the new person to venerate was. They took important persons of worship in the Celtic society and merely changed them to saints. Oh yes, religions can change if they want to. They have many times. After all, what has happened to limbo....

I guess what I'm saying is this, if the reason is a good enough one, they will change. I don't know of a better reason than lessoning the endless suffering our negative beliefs are causing. I think that was what all the "founders" of the religions were trying to say originally. It's the followers misinterpreting and leaders with agendas that got everybody off track.

It may be naive to think that people can come together for the greater good, but I believe it is prudent that we at least start cooperating with each other. Is there some reason why we have to kill someone because he worships in a different way? I don't think there is.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Is there some reason why we have to kill someone because he worships in a different way? I don't think there is.

Very nice strawman, challupa. :sorry1:

Tell you what, take your Bible and read the very last thing printed in it and get back to me.

Just so you understand, what the world needs right now is tolerance for a different belief other than your own, not everyone believing in lockstep. :sad:

 

[challupa]

Greetings. Yes, that would be dissappointing. Sacrasm and condescension that put one above others would not be consistent with his expressed view on ego nor on the oneness with all in Enlightenment. My readings and viewings from Eckhart have not surfaced any hint of those kinds of negativities (yet) - if you have a link, will check it out. Of course, one is always limited by one's own wisdom in bringing Enlightened being, nondual wisdom, into the dualistic views of others regardless of intention.

I just went looking for the one that made me feel that way but I couldn't find it, I'm sorry. I went looking for more talks by him after the 10 sessions with Oprah because like everyone else I think I was in a bit of withdrawal and I found that one that sounded so different from how he had been in the classroom that it took me by surprise and I felt a little let down I guess. I must say though, overall, I do enjoy his talks and am able to take many things of value from them. I didn't mean to devalue his contribution, I was just sharing how that one video affected me.

 

[challupa]

Very nice strawman, challupa. :sorry1:

Tell you what, take your Bible and read the very last thing printed in it and get back to me.

Just so you understand, what the world needs right now is tolerance for a different belief other than your own, not everyone believing in lockstep. :sad:

First I guess I would like to say that I do not belong to any religion so I don't know what the last sentence is in the bible. However, let me guess, "The End" ? Secondly, I have no desire to see everyone believing in lockstep. I too believe that what the world needs right now is tolerance for a different belief other than our own. Diversity of beliefs and thought is our strength. That's what I have been saying. Would tolerance not bring less bloodshed.

 

[Japaholic]

........... give up the need to silence other's beliefs. If you wish to be respected for your beliefs then it is harmonious and respectful to do the same for others also. The current state of affairs is religions jostling for supremacy and killing in the name of God. I don't think any all powerful, all merciful, all forgiving, all knowing being needs us doing that for it/her/him.

Well said sir...nothing to add as I agree with that 100%

Am I making any sense.....

Yes you are, perfect sense.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Originally Posted by Jordan St. Francis
Were the religions simply to give up their claims to presenting the truth and ciphon off their doctrines and creeds to the realm of subjectivity and personal preference, I believe religion would essentially die, become merely cultic and ultimately worthless.

Luis Dantas:

Oriental religions' history suggests otherwise, however.

So are you suggesting that the Abrahamic faiths adopt the metaphysical claims of the oriental religions as truth?

I don't think the Eastern religions are quite as subjective as Westerns typically think. The Eastern religions also make claims to ultimate reality, and how they frame their response to other religions and evaluate them occurs under the terms of what they consider ultimate reality to be.

It's odd, but I've never heard a poster complain that, according to Buddhist doctrine, they will suffer endless re-births unless they discover what every Buddhist already knows [is trying to "know"] often, we do see complaints against Christianity for stating it is "the way".

 

[autonomous1one1]

Greetings.

Some realize that the heart of each and every major religion is the same and think that there is a revolution mounting to rediscover this core. If so, human beings will know within themselves the unity with all other human beings and as enough do so the separating factors within religions will dissolve.

....I guess what I'm saying is this, if the reason is a good enough one, they will change. I don't know of a better reason than lessoning the endless suffering our negative beliefs are causing. I think that was what all the "founders" of the religions were trying to say originally. It's the followers misinterpreting and leaders with agendas that got everybody off track......

There is another reason that is 'good enough' to bring about the needed change within religions. It might be described as the attraction of awakening. Awakening because of its extraordinary and wonderful nature will draw people to it as they become more familiar with it. Understanding of it is beginning to boom right now like never before and as more people experience it more love and attractive force will be offered to others.

Awakening, or Enlightenment, is a solution because it puts beings back in touch with the origination of their religion and into oneness with all others. Differences can, will, and should exist but will be overpowered by this. As more beings realize this throughout all religions enough will come to effect change. Our job is to work on what we can control, our own being, to make sure that we are a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

 

[challupa]

There is another reason that is 'good enough' to bring about the needed change within religions. It might be described as the attraction of awakening. Awakening because of its extraordinary and wonderful nature will draw people to it as they become more familiar with it. Understanding of it is beginning to boom right now like never before and as more people experience it more love and attractive force will be offered to others.

Awakening, or Enlightenment, is a solution because it puts beings back in touch with the origination of their religion and into oneness with all others. Differences can, will, and should exist but will be overpowered by this. As more beings realize this throughout all religions enough will come to effect change. Our job is to work on what we can control, our own being, to make sure that we are a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

Oh I love this post! So true. It's not that there won't be differences because there always will be. It is so true that we are responsible for our own behavior. Collectively is when you start seeing huge changes, but it all starts with the individual.

 

[challupa]

Someone asked about the author to this book a few posts back. There is a website too. The link is:

Home

 

[Surya Deva]

It is true Eastern religions are not completely subjective. They are a lot more flexible than Abrahmic religions though, I am sure we can grant them that. They also tend to be a lot more science friendly. I don't meet many Eastern religious people who deny evolution and old-earth. Although you do get the odd few questioning gravity lol