Redistribution of Health Care?

[Father Heathen]

Because all these countries you swoon over have a higher tax rate for their citizens.

So it's all about having that little extra money to buy that designer handbag rather than making sure a child from an impoverished family gets the care they need?

 

[Reverend Rick]

So it's all about having that little extra money to buy that designer handbag rather than making sure a child from an impoverished family gets the care they need?

No, an impoverished family already receives medicaid. They have the best system in the world. They can go to the doctor or hospital and receive any medical care they need with no deductible or copay. This is better insurance than we give our seniors who have worked hard and paid into the system for decades.

You are right though, this is about greed. People who have jobs and don't want to pay for medical insurance are the greedy ones.

 

[Alceste]

Because all these countries you swoon over have a higher tax rate for their citizens.

Nonsense. Add what you pay in medical expenses to what you pay in taxes (be honest now, all the medical expenses in your life so far, as an uninsured man battling cancer). Compare that number to what you would have paid in taxes if you lived in Canada.

This is what I don't get, Rick. In a single-payer system you'd be the beneficiary. You're actually battling an illness. All those poor folk would be paying for you because you're the one who needs the health care. I haven't been to the doctor in over a decade. I wouldn't mind paying for your surgeries, as I do for all the rich Canadians who get sick while I'm healthy. And yet you continually spout such contempt for people like me. Shameless.

 

[Valjean]

Those higher taxes buy a lot more of what you'd be buying anyway than you could afford on your own. <<did that make sense>>
Alcest is right. But add free university education, higher wages, lower prices, lower crime rates and intangables like a healthier, better educated society and you come out ahead on the deal.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I believe we all want a fair medical system that is more affordable. Many doctors cannot keep the doors open with what medicare pays for each service. That is why they are not accepting any new medicare patients. Many primary care physicians are not making all that much money.

Most new doctors are becoming specialists and shying away from primary care. Add another 50 million people to the rolls is a recipe for disaster.

Everyone is citing extreme stories about poor people dieing from lack of health care. The majority of patients who come in for a doctor visit are not about to die. The people who would benefit the most from health care that do not presently have it would not take the doctors advice anyway. Stop smoking, watch your diet, exercise are commonly mentioned with little results.

A revolving door of 50 million more folks would be devastating to our medical system without additional facilities.

You cannot provide more for less without someone suffering from the additional burden.

 

[jamaesi]

Everyone is citing extreme stories about poor people dieing from lack of health care. The majority of patients who come in for a doctor visit are not about to die. The people who would benefit the most from health care that do not presently have it would not take the doctors advice anyway. Stop smoking, watch your diet, exercise are commonly mentioned with little results.

Why you're absolutely right, Rick. I would benefit quiet a bit from having health care and presently do not have it. I'm just a stupid lazy idiot who won't listen to the doctor. I'm sure "Stop smoking, watch your diet, exercise" will magically even the most severe of my herniated discs, spinal stenosis, scoliosis, degenerative disc disease and arthritises. Physical therapy, drugs, a TENS unit, surgeries, and all those other treatments are all just magic talk. *waves hands around and makes spooky noises*

Oh, by the way, when I stand still for longer than a few seconds or walk for just a little bit I collapse because of the severe pain in my legs, hips, and back. Sitting's still really hard to do for more than maybe a minute if I'm doing well. I'm doing stretches (even though that's a whole another kind of agony) while taking the precious few muscle relaxers I have. Soooo, what exercise do you think I should do? Maybe some weight lifting or jogging? I eat a mostly vegetarian diet that's pretty balanced and healthy, should I just stop eating? I'd quit smoking (about half a pack a day) but with all that's going on with my life right now I'd probably just find a slightly faster way to kill myself.

You're right, I'm not about to die. I'm just about to live the rest of my life without being able to move around or walk or do the most basic daily activities by myself if I do not get treatment. Dying actually sounds a craptonne better than that.

I can't wait to tell everyone else who is uninsured and uninsured with serious medical conditions this medical breakthrough you just came up with. I'm sure the uninsured folks with advanced stages of cancer will eat that **** up.


Oh, wait, uninsured people are more likely to die because they can't afford to have checkups, screenings and other preventive care that would have caught treatable diseases in the early stages/before they kill the uninsured person? You mean they're not just fat lazy chimneys who shove cake down their throats between drags on their Marlboros? Well, ****... How can we victim blame now?


Fact is, Rick, these XTREME CASEZ do exist no matter how much you want to just wish us away. What, there's like 18,000-22,000 of XTREME CASEZ dying every year and uninsured adults are 25% more likely to die from being uninsured.

You cannot provide more for less without someone suffering from the additional burden.

So I should just continue suffering while rich people or people who already have socialize medicine get all the care?

 

[rojse]

This is a myth. If we screen 50 people to find one illness that could have been treated earlier, there would be no cost savings. Your buddy Barry spewed that rhetoric in a town hall meeting. His example was managing a diabetic and amputation. He said it would cost 20,000 to remove a foot. Medicare pays about 800 dollars for the procedure.

But the thing about this is that people screen themselves. A majority of people have a pretty good idea when they are not feeling well, and don't want to visit the doctor unless they are ill or in pain.

 

[linwood]

You may be the first conservative I`ve ever met who apparently doesn`t know how capitalism works.

Why are we not hearing about any plans for more hospitals or medical clinics?

We don`t at this time have a need for them but I`m sure if we do get a paying system we`ll see them springing up all over the place.
It`s a little thing called supply and demand.

Why are we not seeing any plan to attract more doctors or nurses?

I`ve seen Universities and community colleges focusing on getting more medical professionals enrolled for the past ten years.

There is a nursing shortage out there.

I think that`s why "I`ve seen Universities and community colleges focusing on getting more medical professionals enrolled for the past ten years."

If we enroll 50 million more people with their new Barry Obama health care cards, will one more person be seen on any given day by a doctor?

Hey you`re ringht those poor people are gonna mess up my access tio health care!!
Screw them!!

I believe we do not have a new health care plan in the works. What we have is the redistribution of health care.

You believe alot of things I just can`t understand.

Many will benefit, but just as many will not be seen on any given day. There will not be one more doctor or one more hospital bed after a new health care plan is passed.

Still amazed by a conservative who doesn`t understand the foundational underpinnings of capitalism

Some will suffer while others will be treated, just as it is now.

Some will always suffer while others are treated.
With an actual UHC system LESS will suffer while MORE are treated.

To me, this is a zero sum game without additional doctors and hospitals.

False dilemma much?

 

[Alceste]

The US hysteria about the a potential increase in wait times for non-critical health care ignores one of the major benefits: Many minor conditions clear up on their own in the interim. This is one of the things that reduces costs. For example, you book an appointment with your family doctor to give you something for an infected hangnail, or to lance a boil or burn off a wart or something. Your doctor is all booked up until the middle of next week, so you make an appointment. Then your boil / hangnail / wart goes away within a couple of days, so you cancel your appointment, which opens a window for someone with more pressing needs to take your spot. (The doctor bills the government on a per patient visit basis, so it's nothing to him whether it's you he sees or some other patient - there's no cancellation charge.)

My dad was traveling in the US and had some kind of problem - some worry about his heart. He saw a US doctor who said something along the lines of "Well, if you were my patient I'd recommend you immediately get this heart surgery that costs tens of thousands of dollars. But seeing as you're Canadian, I think you should go home and see what they say". So home he came, saw his doctor, who said "let's keep an eye on it for a month or two, and if it's still giving you trouble we'll go from there". While he waited for his next appointment, the problem cleared up completely and gave him no further trouble for decades. So, not only were tens of thousands of potentially wasted funds scooped out of the public purse for an unnecessary surgery, my father was not subjected to heart surgery un-necessarily.

This is directly due to the fact that we sometimes wait for non-essential health services. We are happy to wait, in most cases. If there was no wait for any services, it would indicate over-funding. Lengthy wait times for certain services simply indicate a need for increased funding of those particular services, which is easily accomplished under our existing Health Care Legislation. It certainly doesn't indicate a need for greater participation by for-profit health insurers.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Why you're absolutely right, Rick. I would benefit quiet a bit from having health care and presently do not have it. I'm just a stupid lazy idiot who won't listen to the doctor. I'm sure "Stop smoking, watch your diet, exercise" will magically even the most severe of my herniated discs, spinal stenosis, scoliosis, degenerative disc disease and arthritises. Physical therapy, drugs, a TENS unit, surgeries, and all those other treatments are all just magic talk. *waves hands around and makes spooky noises*

Oh, by the way, when I stand still for longer than a few seconds or walk for just a little bit I collapse because of the severe pain in my legs, hips, and back. Sitting's still really hard to do for more than maybe a minute if I'm doing well. I'm doing stretches (even though that's a whole another kind of agony) while taking the precious few muscle relaxers I have. Soooo, what exercise do you think I should do? Maybe some weight lifting or jogging? I eat a mostly vegetarian diet that's pretty balanced and healthy, should I just stop eating? I'd quit smoking (about half a pack a day) but with all that's going on with my life right now I'd probably just find a slightly faster way to kill myself.

You're right, I'm not about to die. I'm just about to live the rest of my life without being able to move around or walk or do the most basic daily activities by myself if I do not get treatment. Dying actually sounds a craptonne better than that.

I can't wait to tell everyone else who is uninsured and uninsured with serious medical conditions this medical breakthrough you just came up with. I'm sure the uninsured folks with advanced stages of cancer will eat that **** up.


Oh, wait, uninsured people are more likely to die because they can't afford to have checkups, screenings and other preventive care that would have caught treatable diseases in the early stages/before they kill the uninsured person? You mean they're not just fat lazy chimneys who shove cake down their throats between drags on their Marlboros? Well, ****... How can we victim blame now?


Fact is, Rick, these XTREME CASEZ do exist no matter how much you want to just wish us away. What, there's like 18,000-22,000 of XTREME CASEZ dying every year and uninsured adults are 25% more likely to die from being uninsured.




So I should just continue suffering while rich people or people who already have socialize medicine get all the care?

Jamaesi, you are personalising this debate. I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD BE DENIED HEALTH CARE. If you bother to read my posts, I said you personally need a disability advocate. YOU SHOULD BE COVERED UNDER OUR PRESENT SYSTEM.

I have never said anything mean spirited towards you personally, (nor have I thought it). :kissbette

 

[Alceste]

Jamaesi, you are personalising this debate. I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD BE DENIED HEALTH CARE. If you bother to read my posts, I said you personally need a disability advocate. YOU SHOULD BE COVERED UNDER OUR PRESENT SYSTEM.

I have never said anything mean spirited towards you personally, (nor have I thought it). :kissbette

Rick, SHE IS NOT COVERED UNDER YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM.

Don't you think you're personalizing it some yourself by continually denying that she exists?

 

[yossarian22]

Jamaesi, you are personalising this debate. I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD BE DENIED HEALTH CARE. If you bother to read my posts, I said you personally need a disability advocate. YOU SHOULD BE COVERED UNDER OUR PRESENT SYSTEM.

I have never said anything mean spirited towards you personally, (nor have I thought it). :kissbette

Yes, divorce your positions from their consequences. Of course you never said "You, jamaesi should not have health care." That is just the result of your position. Stop strawmanning and dancing around the issue. She is not covered under the current system. She will, in all likelihood, never be covered under the current US healthcare system.

 

[jamaesi]

Jamaesi, you are personalising this debate. I NEVER SAID YOU SHOULD BE DENIED HEALTH CARE. If you bother to read my posts, I said you personally need a disability advocate. YOU SHOULD BE COVERED UNDER OUR PRESENT SYSTEM.

I have never said anything mean spirited towards you personally, (nor have I thought it). :kissbette

You aren't saying "mean spirited" things towards me, but your positions are heartless and mean-spirited. You can muster up all the cognitive dissonance you want here between those two, but I'm the one with the fuzzy end of the lollipop either way.

How many times do I and everyone have to tell you I DO NOT QUALIFY. Let's try all caps! Next I can try a bigger font and brighter colours! I DO NOT QUALIFY, RICK, I COULD GO CALL ADVOCATES UP RIGHT NOW AND SEE LAWYERS JUST TO BE TOLD UNTIL I GET RECENT DOCUMENTATION OF MY DEGENERATIVE INCURABLE CONDITIONS HAVING NOT MAGICALLY DISAPPEARED SINCE THE LAST DOCUMENTATION OF THEM YEARS AGO I DO NOT QUALIFY FOR ANYTHING AND I GET NO COVERAGE. ALL I GET IS TO HEAR YOU AND MANY OTHERS GO ON ABOUT HOW I JUST DON'T EXIST AND I'M JUST NOT ~*~TRYING~*~ HARD ENOUGH AND ALL THE OTHER LIES THAT ARE BEING DRUG OUT AGAINST UNIVERSAL COVERAGE THAT WOULD HELP SO MANY PEOPLE.

If you don't believe me listen to Alceste, this is their job and they're telling you the same thing.

This is why we need to get health care reform and we need it now.

I can't afford a function test (which last for a couple hours and costs hundreds or thousands an hour). I can't afford to see specialists. I can't go to my GP and have him do anything. I can't afford to get another full body scan. I can't afford to get an MRI. I could crawl outside and get hit by a car (AGAIN, one of my MRIs was after I got hit by a car but I had insurance then so I could have just gotten a referral and skipped being hit by a car in a hospital parking lot on my way to physical therapy!) and rushed to the ER and then they'd do a MRI and maybe some other tests on me at everyone else's expense.

This is where I am stuck. The system isn't working.


I am really sick of hearing this denial and victim blaming coming from you so I'm not going to stop correcting you when you pretend people in my situation don't exist until the system is fixed and you can be right about how well taken of I am. I seriously have nothing better to do, Rick. You say you aren't personalizing this but this is just the result of your positions. It's very personal to me because this is my life and i am suffering because of the health care system as it is now. People like me just aren't part of a for profit health care system. Even when I had rightfully had insurance through my mom through her work with two different insurance companies and I was a minor and could not be excluded I was "accidentally" dropped a few times a year because of "paperwork errors" right after I had to have some expensive procedure done- and we was saddled with the bills. This has been my life since I was 12, Rick. Severe pain every day and uncertainty about my future. I can't do the things I love, I used to mountain bike, rock climb, white water raft, play soccer, go hiking, do gymnastics, various forms of dance, horse training (I worked with "problem" horses-problem horses were just abused horses who needed some compassion) and feral horses and I was called a horse whisperer by many) and riding... but all that slowly got taken away from and now I'm at the point where I can't get out of bed without drugging myself to the gills. I wish I could go back to school and get a job and do something with my life but I can't. At this point I just consider myself they haven't foreclosed the house on us and that today we can actually buy groceries. We couldn't afford groceries because my mom had to buy my drugs that were prescribed when we broke down and took me to the hospital last Sunday because I was in so much pain I couldn't do anything but scream.

There is redistribution of health care right now- people who really need it are having it taken away to be given to people who don't use their insurance that much. Other first world countries manage to take care of all their citizens including people like me without denying people the care they really need and they get it in a timely manner- why can't we do that here? Even Bosnia, who just went through a genocide and war can manage to provide health care to all its citizens.

 

[Alceste]

If you don't believe me listen to Alceste, this is their job and they're telling you the same thing.

Actually, that was Auto's job, but of course I defer to her judgment on all American legal matters.

As to the rest of your post, you go, girl! Nobody who hasn't walked (or hobbled, as the case may be) a mile in your shoes has any right at all to tell you what it's like to be uninsured and unable to pay.

 

[jamaesi]

Actually, that was Auto's job, but of course I defer to her judgment on all American legal matters.

As to the rest of your post, you go, girl! Nobody who hasn't walked (or hobbled, as the case may be) a mile in your shoes has any right at all to tell you what it's like to be uninsured and unable to pay.

Oh, oops! You both start with A and I got mixed up, sorry about that. :cover:

 

[Alceste]

Oh, oops! You both start with A and I got mixed up, sorry about that. :cover:

No worries, happens to me all the time. Even in real life!

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you apply for a disability, EVERYONE gets a denial letter. You have to go to court to receive a disability check. Many lawyers will send you to their doctor at their expense and will not charge you a dime till they receive your compensation that you deserve.

Let's remember folks, the same government you put your trust in to provide you health care is the same government who is denying Jamaei's claim. Are they denying her because she does not qualify for disability or because they don't want to pay her?

As far as I am concerned, I choose my medical options and I pay for my medical care out of pocket. Yes, it is expensive, but not as expensive as additional draconian taxes would be on me.

Let's say I am wrong about this. ( is anyone going to frubal me for trying to be honest?) At least I am in control of my treatment, conventional or otherwise. I wish you all would quit trying to demonise me for having a different opinion than the prevailing attitudes here on RF.

I do provide my employees with health insurance which is more than most of my competition is doing presently who I have to bid against by the way.

If Jamaesi was in our town, we would be taking up special love offerings to help her with her problems. She has slipped through the cracks of our present system. I am not so sure of the level of care she would receive after health care reform. Let's remember, the same government people are going to be in charge that is ignoring her right now.

 

[Alceste]

If you apply for a disability, EVERYONE gets a denial letter. You have to go to court to receive a disability check. Many lawyers will send you to their doctor at their expense and will not charge you a dime till they receive your compensation that you deserve.

This is what makes it personal, Rick. She's told her story in great detail, including the part where she has consulted with disability advocates and lawyers, and they've told her she's not eligible for health insurance in the current system. Auto, who IS a disability lawyer (or was) has confirmed this is true. Essentially you're telling jamaesi she's lying. She hasn't done it. Because if she had, the outcome would have been what you expect, not what the outcome actually was.

Let's remember folks, the same government you put your trust in to provide you health care is the same government who is denying Jamaei's claim. Are they denying her because she does not qualify for disability or because they don't want to pay her?

Rick, you've got a very shallow understanding of what public health insurance actually is. The government can't give people help if they aren't legally allowed to do so - if the government is going to be allowed to help Jamaesi, the law will have to be changed, and a public option provided. The cutoff for assistance is at a percentage of the federal poverty level. If you make more than, for example, 130 % of the poverty level you are not eligible for government assistance. the Dem's bill changes that to about 400 % of the poverty level, and prohibits insurance companies from denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions. They would only be allowed to cancel coverage for failure to pay premiums or fraud. That would solve Jamaesi's problem - she'd be covered.

But you're against this bill, seemingly for no better reason than Democrats have touched it. You'd rather she goes without any help as long as nothing the Democrats try to do is to help her allowed to happen.

As far as I am concerned, I choose my medical options and I pay for my medical care out of pocket. Yes, it is expensive, but not as expensive as additional draconian taxes would be on me.

Let's say I am wrong about this. ( is anyone going to frubal me for trying to be honest?) At least I am in control of my treatment, conventional or otherwise. I wish you all would quit trying to demonise me for having a different opinion than the prevailing attitudes here on RF.

Canadians are also in control of their treatment. We pick our doctors out of the phone book. They operate private businesses. If we don't like one doctor, we choose another. The government just pays the bill. They operate a universal health insurance service, not a health care system. Granted, in some places it can be hard to find a doctor who is accepting new patients, but this would easily be rectified by the government providing incentives such as free education in exchange for a set term of working as a family doctor in a region that has a shortage, or by making it easier for immigrant doctors to practice.

Your belief that the government providing universal insurance = the government performing every single pap smear and rectal exam is false.

 

[Tiapan]

How can you have a successful health system that does not spread the risk across the whole population?

Cheers

I think many have been sucked in by rhetoric, of vested corporate entities at the expense of the governments responsibility.

 

[Alceste]

How can you have a successful health system that does not spread the risk across the whole population?

Cheers

I think many have been sucked in by rhetoric, of vested corporate entities at the expense of the governments responsibility.

My parents tell me the battle for universal health insurance coverage was just as hysterical, deceptive and nasty in Canada. (Worse, actually, according to him). We had the advantage that one province had already done it, so it was much harder to conceal the fact that it works. The brainwashing industry in the US is able to take advantage of people's natural patriotism and distrust of other countries to make sure they don't see that it works.