Redistribution of Health Care?

[rojse]

My parents tell me the battle for universal health insurance coverage was just as hysterical, deceptive and nasty in Canada. (Worse, actually, according to him). We had the advantage that one province had already done it, so it was much harder to conceal the fact that it works. The brainwashing industry in the US is able to take advantage of people's natural patriotism and distrust of other countries to make sure they don't see that it works.

That's a good point - why don't they do a trial run in one state of the US?

EDIT: Why does patriotism have to be linked with a distrust of other countries? I mean, I like Australia, but it doesn't mean I have to hate every single other country to do so.

 

[Alceste]

That's a good point - why don't they do a trial run in one state of the US?

EDIT: Why does patriotism have to be linked with a distrust of other countries? I mean, I like Australia, but it doesn't mean I have to hate every single other country to do so.

Well, while I'm quoting my dad, I might as well tell you that in his opinion, the US has a well-oiled and highly effective demonization machine, wired to go off at the slightest hint of criticism coming from outside its borders. France doesn't want to go to war? Come on everybody, let's eat FREEDOM FRIES! That'll stick it to those dirty cheese-eating surrender monkeys! Canada doesn't want to go to war? CANUCKISTAN!!!! Terrorist haven! Let's build a fence!!! On the health care issue, the simple fact that we're all doing it better implies that we think they're cocking it up, so they hate everybody. (BTW, note to Americans, I don't mean you personally, or your loved ones, I mean the Biased Liberal Media.)

 

[jamaesi]

If you apply for a disability, EVERYONE gets a denial letter. You have to go to court to receive a disability check. Many lawyers will send you to their doctor at their expense and will not charge you a dime till they receive your compensation that you deserve.

Let's remember folks, the same government you put your trust in to provide you health care is the same government who is denying Jamaei's claim. Are they denying her because she does not qualify for disability or because they don't want to pay her?

As far as I am concerned, I choose my medical options and I pay for my medical care out of pocket. Yes, it is expensive, but not as expensive as additional draconian taxes would be on me.

Let's say I am wrong about this. ( is anyone going to frubal me for trying to be honest?) At least I am in control of my treatment, conventional or otherwise. I wish you all would quit trying to demonise me for having a different opinion than the prevailing attitudes here on RF.

I do provide my employees with health insurance which is more than most of my competition is doing presently who I have to bid against by the way.

If Jamaesi was in our town, we would be taking up special love offerings to help her with her problems. She has slipped through the cracks of our present system. I am not so sure of the level of care she would receive after health care reform. Let's remember, the same government people are going to be in charge that is ignoring her right now.

I feel like a broken record and you're treating me like I'm an idiot and a liar, and I do not appreciate that.

Rick, not EVERYONE gets a denial letter, IIRC around 80% do.

I got rejected after being told I had presumptive approval which was a real blow. My rejection letter said that "pain is not a disabling condition" or something along those lines. Now, this is ********. Evaluators for disability are extremely dismissive of back pain claims. In my opinion, this is mostly because I don't think anyone has took it upon themselves to strike them repeatedly in the back with a crowbar and run them over with a truck to let them know what just back pain feels like. Back to it being ********, they have been successfully sued over being so dismissive of back pain and still haven't changed their ways.

Now because I am not an idiot, I've done my research. If you have back pain and have not been to a doctor for it, seen specialists, have had treatments like epidural injections of steriods (which actually does more harm than good), done phsyical therapy, used a TENS unit or other such device, and have had surgery/ies you have no chance of getting disability.

However, I have done all those things. The thing is, I haven't had them done recently enough (within a year counts as recently enough). I can not afford to have them done.

I contacted all the lawyers in my area that do disability cases. I was told by each one that they would not take my case because I am "not under a doctor's care" and I do not have recent documentation of my incurable degenerative conditions that are never going away and that are just going to get worse in between each documentation. Going to their doctor at their expensive was not even a option- I have NEVER heard of that.


Now here's the thing. I COMPLETELY 100% SHOULD HAVE DISABILITY and am OVERQUALIFIED with the amount and severity of my disabling conditions. You're right about that. But I STILL don't because I do not have recent documentation of my severe and disabling conditions because I can't afford to have them done and can not get health insurance because of my pre-existing conditions and because the insurance will be so expensive for a "high-risk" person like me.

I don't even want the disability payments I just want the insurance (Medicaid). That is the only reason I applied was for the insurance.

Do you see the problem here or do I have to keep repeating myself over and over and over?


Now, your comparing to my struggle with getting disability to a universal public government run system makes absolutely no sense. Disability is for disabled people only. I am disabled but I don't have recent documentation to prove it even though, again, my conditions are incurable and degenerative and can only be managed and I am obviously not getting medical care to manage them so they have only gotten worse making me more disabled. A universal public option WILL NOT have this problem because EVERYONE gets it without jumping through flaming hoops. I am not being denied because they don't want to pay me but because they don't HAVE to because I don't have recent enough documentation.


You are being dismissive of people who "fall through the cracks" like I am and it's disgusting. No one should be falling through any cracks no matter how many or how few.

 

[Zephyr]

As far as I am concerned, I choose my medical options and I pay for my medical care out of pocket. Yes, it is expensive, but not as expensive as additional draconian taxes would be on me.

Hey Rick, how does it feel to place your money ahead of human lives?

 

[Alceste]

Hey Rick, how does it feel to place your money ahead of human lives?

Now, that's not exactly fair - he is placing his ideology ahead of human lives. The present system is costing him dearly - most of us could not imagine what it would cost to pay for cancer treatment out of pocket.

 

[jamaesi]

That's a good point - why don't they do a trial run in one state of the US?

EDIT: Why does patriotism have to be linked with a distrust of other countries? I mean, I like Australia, but it doesn't mean I have to hate every single other country to do so.

Why would we need to do a trial run in one state when we have MANY examples of how government run health care works in all of America? The most well know is Medicare and Medicaid but don't forget that military members and veterans, prisoners, congresscritters, and probably more I am forgetting all have some form of government run health care. Now some work better than others, but from all the people screaming "I DON'T WANT SOCIALIST MEDICINE BUT DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MY MEDICARE" the government can get it right...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you apply for a disability, EVERYONE gets a denial letter. You have to go to court to receive a disability check. Many lawyers will send you to their doctor at their expense and will not charge you a dime till they receive your compensation that you deserve.

Have you ever known anyone who has gone through a disabilities war? It's not "a" denial letter, it's one after another, several more after that, any they will never stop coming until you get a lawyer. So not only have you spent alot of money on a doctor to say your disabled, now you have to pay for a lawyer to tell a judge your disabled. And along with that, more tests, more doctors visits, and lawyers visits. And if and when you are finally cleared, you have to wait forever for your initial hearing. And then if that is cleared, then you have to wait even longer for your first check. And if you haven't gone bankrupt from all the doctor and lawyer bills, the wait just might do you in.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Rick, you've got a very shallow understanding of what public health insurance actually is. The government can't give people help if they aren't legally allowed to do so - if the government is going to be allowed to help Jamaesi, the law will have to be changed, and a public option provided. The cutoff for assistance is at a percentage of the federal poverty level. If you make more than, for example, 130 % of the poverty level you are not eligible for government assistance. the Dem's bill changes that to about 400 % of the poverty level, and prohibits insurance companies from denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions. They would only be allowed to cancel coverage for failure to pay premiums or fraud. That would solve Jamaesi's problem - she'd be covered.

I'm trying to follow. It would seem to me if you are disabled, ( and I believe Jamaesi is telling the truth and should be receiving benefits) that you would have no income. Please explain how 130% or 400% would make any difference in Jamaesi case? Are you saying that people who make 4 times above the poverty level cannot afford to pay for ANY health services?

Remember now, I just asked a question, not made a statement OK?

But you're against this bill, seemingly for no better reason than Democrats have touched it. You'd rather she goes without any help as long as nothing the Democrats try to do is to help her allowed to happen.

That is a little unfair. From where I am sitting it seems the democrats are the ones who are trying to go it alone on health care. Of course they will have to change a law that they already changed once before to have 60 seats in the Senate.

Tell me again about who wants who not to touch the bill?

 

[Alceste]

I'm trying to follow. It would seem to me if you are disabled, ( and I believe Jamaesi is telling the truth and should be receiving benefits) that you would have no income. Please explain how 130% or 400% would make any difference in Jamaesi case? Are you saying that people who make 4 times above the poverty level cannot afford to pay for ANY health services?

From earlier posts, it's because her mother earns too much, but I should probably let her speak for herself.

4 X poverty level is still only about $40,000 a year. I'm sure seeing a doctor and getting a few tests would be no problem, but if you have serious health problems and have to pay out of pocket, that would disappear pretty quick.

That is a little unfair. From where I am sitting it seems the democrats are the ones who are trying to go it alone on health care. Of course they will have to change a law that they already changed once before to have 60 seats in the Senate.

Tell me again about who wants who not to touch the bill?

To be honest, I haven't been following the latest news with the bill - I find it too depressing. I'm not very confident that it will pass, so I've kind of lost interest what's in it. I will just wait and see what you end up with, and hope it's more inclusive than what you have now. It would be nice to see nobody uninsured, but maybe that's for the next battle. Or the one after. Or the one after that.

 

[Reverend Rick]

From earlier posts, it's because her mother earns too much, but I should probably let her speak for herself.

Yes, she laid all of these details out before us and now does not want people to comment. I would ask why her mother's income was a consideration, but all my comments have been taken in a really bad light. I just would love to fix her problem with the current system we have. You see, I am a fighter and don't take no for an answer.......

I would offer to say a prayer for her, but I doubt that would be appreciated either.

I guess I will just let this thread go.

4 X poverty level is still only about $40,000 a year. I'm sure seeing a doctor and getting a few tests would be no problem, but if you have serious health problems and have to pay out of pocket, that would disappear pretty quick.

Agreed

 

[Alceste]

Well, just one final thing before you go - her mother's income is a factor because she is listed as a dependent.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Well, just one final thing before you go - her mother's income is a factor because she is listed as a dependent.

It sounds like a pretty expensive tax deduction to me.

It is no wonder I am confused.

Mom makes too much money, but can't afford the medical bills, but is taking the credit for supporting her daughter with the government by listing her as a dependant.

Daughter cannot receive a disability check because mom claims her on her taxes.

The more I think about this, the more upset I get.

If mom actually could afford the medical bills, she would be able to deduct them from her income and be below the poverty line and they would qualify. :help:

 

[themadhair]

I know people who haven’t gotten married because the tax system in my country, as it applies to agriculture and children, would screw them.

 

[Autodidact]

Why are we not hearing about any plans for more hospitals or medical clinics?

I don't know whether you're familiar with the concept of the free market or not, but it works pretty well.

Why are we not seeing any plan to attract more doctors or nurses?

Y'know that whole free market thing?

There is a nursing shortage out there.

So what do you think we should do about it?

If we enroll 50 million more people with their new Barry Obama health care cards, will one more person be seen on any given day by a doctor?

Wait, you keep saying everyone has health care now. Now are you saying some people don't have health care now?

I believe we do not have a new health care plan in the works. What we have is the redistribution of health care. Many will benefit, but just as many will not be seen on any given day. There will not be one more doctor or one more hospital bed after a new health care plan is passed.

How do you know?

Some will suffer while others will be treated, just as it is now. To me, this is a zero sum game without additional doctors and hospitals.

I put my confidence in the free market.

My suggestion is that we take a little of the money that we're wasting subsidizing the health insurance industry, and use it to pay some more doctors and nurses, and bingo, no shortage.

 

[Autodidact]

The problem is, over half of working Americans get every penny of there tax withholding back and then some every year. When the majority of Americans can vote that the minority pay for everything, it becomes grossly unfair.

Everyone should have some skin in the game. Too many underachievers get a free pass.

Make up your mind. What are you mad about, health care or the tax structure? If you want to argue about taxes, start a thread.

I don't know much about it, but my past experience suggests that if I google it, I will soon know more than you and you will probably be mistaken, as you've been mistaken about everything else.

 

[Autodidact]

I believe it is pretty arrogant to believe health care should be provided to you at no cost just like air and water is. Health care costs money. If your life is not in danger, you should expect to pony up some green if you want to be seen. Lets not forget that we already give health care to the poor. We are talking about people with jobs here.

Do you feel the same way about schools? Why or why not?

Please stop saying we already give health care to the poor. It's a lie. If it were true, your OP would make no sense. Lying gets on my nerves.

 

[Autodidact]

This is a myth. If we screen 50 people to find one illness that could have been treated earlier, there would be no cost savings.

As is almost always the case, you are factually wrong. Think about it for a millisecond. Let's say you have high blood pressure. We can give you a physical, change your diet, maybe prescribe some pills. Meanwhile you continue to work and pay taxes. Or we can wait till you have a stroke and hospitalize you, then send you to a nursing home for months, provide physical, speech and occupational therapy, and if you're lucky eventually you may be able to live at home on disability. This will cost, literally, hundreds of thousands of dollars. Plus all the taxes you don't pay. For that money we could provide preventative care for not 50 but 500 people.

Your buddy Barry spewed that rhetoric in a town hall meeting. His example was managing a diabetic and amputation. He said it would cost 20,000 to remove a foot. Medicare pays about 800 dollars for the procedure.

You're forgetting the cost of the hospital stay, the anesthesiologist, the rehab, the prosthetic foot, the misery, and the lost taxes. I'd say $20k is an underestimate.

You'd have a lot more credibility if you bothered to get your facts right.

Your missing the whole point. I will repeat, why does the health care plan not mention more facilities? You act like the doctors office is ran like the hospital with triage. There you would be correct, a foot fungus would be over looked. The five o'clock appointment is for anything. People with mundane conditions would crowd out others who really need to see the doctor. If this was not true, people would be piling up outside dieing. That's not happening, yet. If you don't charge folks for an office visit, they will be there all the time clogging up the system.

Because that part is up to the free market to provide. No one is suggesting that co-pays be eliminated. You actually don't know the first thing about what's being proposed, do you?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I don't know whether you're familiar with the concept of the free market or not, but it works pretty well.
Y'know that whole free market thing?

Let's see, you want to drive medical expense downward and you think that will stimulate more health care facilities? Work harder and longer for less?

So what do you think we should do about it?

We need new regulations for the insurance industry. What we need more than that is to get the economy going again so people can make enough money to get their own health insurance.

Wait, you keep saying everyone has health care now. Now are you saying some people don't have health care now?

Everyone has life threatening health care. Your picking things apart.

How do you know?

I have supreme physic powers

I put my confidence in the free market.

No you don't. Your a closet socialist at best.

My suggestion is that we take a little of the money that we're wasting subsidizing the health insurance industry, and use it to pay some more doctors and nurses, and bingo, no shortage.

Actually I see the exact opposite happening. There sure are alot of Canadian doctors down here in my country. I wonder why that is?

 

[Autodidact]

Let's see, you want to drive medical expense downward and you think that will stimulate more health care facilities? Work harder and longer for less?

No, not the cost we pay the providers. What I want to eliminate is the unnecessary, expensive administrative cost, which = 30% of our health care cost. I'm not talking about reducing what we pay providers. (other than the drub companies.)

We need new regulations for the insurance industry. What we need more than that is to get the economy going again so people can make enough money to get their own health insurance. Everyone has life threatening health care. Your picking things apart. I have supreme physic powers No you don't. Your a closet socialist at best. Actually I see the exact opposite happening. There sure are alot of Canadian doctors down here in my country. I wonder why that is?

All I'm doing is stating the facts. I don't care what makes doctors happy. (Assuming that your facts are true, which I doubt.) I care that my country is going broke. We cannot afford to maintain our current, hyperexpensive, non-functional system. That's what I'm worried about, Rick. What is your plan to fix it?

Mine is one that has been proven to work in 40 other countries: single-payer.

You're ignoring my question. Why do you want the U.S. to spend twice as much as any other country on earth, just to make sure that we deny care to 15% of our population?

 

[Autodidact]

Your a closet socialist at best.

I see. Rather than respond to the facts, you call me names. Let me guess, do you vote Republican?

How about, instead of attacking me, you deal with the facts, Rick.