Refined in the fire

[idea]

What does everyone believe about suffering? You can choose more than one option in poll.

A friend with cancer has a fb page with updates. Someone commented that they hoped she repented - insinuating the cancer was a curse from god/Allah - that anyone with any misfortune - all trials were result of victim doing something wrong.

In another group, this was posted:

"The first noble truth of the Buddha is that when we feel suffering, it doesn't mean that something is wrong. What a relief. Finally, somebody told the truth. Suffering is part of life, and we don't have to feel it's happening because we personally made the wrong move."

~ Pema Chödrön, When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times

Thoughts?

 

[Misunderstood]

I feel we can cause some problems and suffering by what we do. Say you find the biggest meanest guy you can find, call him a ***** and kick him in the shins. I think the result is going to be pretty much your own fault. We all make a lot of bad choices.

But, I think no matter how good of a life we lead, bad things will happen to good people. I feel that is the point, that sin cannot exist together with innocent people because sin affects the innocent the same as the evil. If sin only affected the evil, there would be no need for anything, only the evil people will ever suffer punishment for what they did. Good people would live a life of bliss.

Jesus, was innocent and without sin. A lot of bad things happened to Him.

 

[SalixIncendium]

What does everyone believe about suffering?

Suffering is a reaction to pain. I've spoken to this previously on the forum...

Pain is a condition of life...of being alive. Pain will come. It's how one reacts to that pain that determines if one will suffer.​

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Buddhism speaks of two arrows. When adversity comes, two arrows fly in our direction. Being struck by an arrow is painful. What determines suffering is how one reacts to being struck. One can focus on the pain of that first arrow and remain ignorant of the trajectory of the second, and be struck again which leads to suffering, or one can be aware that the pain of the first arrow is what it is, and shift focus to being aware that a second arrow is approaching and get out of the way.​

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The moral of the story is that you can focus on what is bringing you distress, or you can accept that what is causing pain is temporary and will run its course, do your best to navigate through, focus on the big picture, and have gratitude that which is in the world that brings you contentment.​

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Pain is inevitable...suffering is optional.​

Detachment and suffering

I would rather not divulge what I am going through or what I fear is up ahead, I just want to talk about detachment and suffering. One reason I do not want to go into any details is because what people say very often only makes me feel worse and I cannot afford to feel any worse since I am...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Twilight Hue]

What does everyone believe about suffering? You can choose more than one option in poll.

A friend with cancer has a fb page with updates. Someone commented that they hoped she repented - insinuating the cancer was a curse from god/Allah - that anyone with any misfortune - all trials were result of victim doing something wrong.

In another group, this was posted:

"The first noble truth of the Buddha is that when we feel suffering, it doesn't mean that something is wrong. What a relief. Finally, somebody told the truth. Suffering is part of life, and we don't have to feel it's happening because we personally made the wrong move."

~ Pema Chödrön, When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times

Thoughts?

Right. Suffering is an aspect of the universe for which we are not at the epicenter, and I couple that along with the Indigenous saying that we don't own the land, but it's the land that owns you.

 

[idea]

Right. Suffering is an aspect of the universe for which we are not at the epicenter, and I couple that along with the Indigenous saying that we don't own the land, but it's the land that owns you.

It's all just the laws of nature, don't take it personally

(much better mindset than - you are deformed so God has to pour fire on you, for your own good... all the little kids, refugees - they all deserve it, for their own good)

 

[idea]

... only the evil people will ever suffer punishment for what they did...

Good people suffer for what evil people do.

No one is evil, many just were not brought up right, just reflecting environment.

 

[idea]

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Pain is inevitable...suffering is optional​

I agree. Much suffering is either from not learning our lesson the first time, or carrying it with us in our head.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I’d say that in life, it is as impossible to never encounter suffering as it is impossible to never encounter joy.

To me, the interesting question therefore becomes: what shall I do with the joy and with the suffering that comes into my life?


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[idea]

I’d say that in life, it is as impossible to never encounter suffering as it is impossible to never encounter joy.

To me, the interesting question therefore becomes: what shall I do with the joy and with the suffering that comes into my life?


Humbly,
Hermit

I think it is possible to never encounter joy - I mean some babies do not make it very far in life, some people live with chronic pain etc.

Yes, do the best you can with what you have, but it's not always deserved "bad Karma", it is just bad luck. It doesn't always refine (many insane or homeless people - their abuse did not refine them, it destroyed them.)

I think the mindset of - it will refine you - isn't good. We learn/grow through good examples - someone who grew up in privilege with expert tutors, books, education, loving examples vs. someone who grew up without parents begging for food in the street - who is more refined? Who knows how to play the piano, knows how to read, knows how to cook some fancy dinner? The most refined did not get that way through trials.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I think it is possible to never encounter joy - I mean some babies do not make it very far in life, some people live with chronic pain etc.

I think it is possible to never encounter joy - I mean some babies do not make it very far in life, some people live with chronic pain etc.

Yes, do the best you can with what you have, but it's not always deserved "bad Karma", it is just bad luck. It doesn't always refine (many insane or homeless people - their abuse did not refine them, it destroyed them.)

I think the mindset of - it will refine you - isn't good. We learn/grow through good examples - someone who grew up in privilege with expert tutors, books, education, loving examples vs. someone who grew up without parents begging for food in the street - who is more refined? Who knows how to play the piano, knows how to read, knows how to cook some fancy dinner? The most refined did not get that way through trials.

I’m not that above was a reply to my comment. I don’t think of us as being “refined” by suffering.

I would say however, that if you feel it is possible to never encounter joy, perhaps it has to do with your definition of “joy”?

A clunk of water, to one who is thirsty, is joy. A spot of warming sunlight, to one who is freezing, is joy. A soothing therapy that gives a minute of less aching, to one in chronic pain, is joy.

To consider such joys as trivial, may seem privileged and ungrateful to those who experience them; do you not think?


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Misunderstood]

Good people suffer for what evil people do.

No one is evil, many just were not brought up right, just reflecting environment.

That is what I said if you read the whole thing. The quote you quoted was taken out of context.

But, I think no matter how good of a life we lead, bad things will happen to good people. I feel that is the point, that sin cannot exist together with innocent people because sin affects the innocent the same as the evil. If sin only affected the evil, there would be no need for anything, only the evil people will ever suffer punishment for what they did. Good people would live a life of bliss.

 

[idea]

That is what I said if you read the whole thing. The quote you quoted was taken out of context.

Do you agree - No one is evil, many just were not brought up right, just reflecting environment.

 

[idea]

I’m not that above was a reply to my comment. I don’t think of us as being “refined” by suffering.

I would say however, that if you feel it is possible to never encounter joy, perhaps it has to do with your definition of “joy”?

A clunk of water, to one who is thirsty, is joy. A spot of warming sunlight, to one who is freezing, is joy. A soothing therapy that gives a minute of less aching, to one in chronic pain, is joy.

To consider such joys as trivial, may seem privileged and ungrateful to those who experience them; do you not think?


Humbly,
Hermit

Do you believe a sperm has the ability to feel joy? an egg? 10-20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, so it depends on when someone defines life as starting - to me, joy takes some level of cognitive ability which is not present in many different forms of life. Chronic pain nervous system disorders, Fibromyalgia etc. not common, but I think it is possible to have a life without joy.

To me, the interesting question therefore becomes: what shall I do with the joy and with the suffering that comes into my life?

I agree, make the best of it.

 

[Misunderstood]

Do you agree - No one is evil, many just were not brought up right, just reflecting environment.

No, I do not agree. Environment completely affects a persons life. But being good or evil is your choice.

If someone falls it is your choice to put out your hand and help them up, or ball your hand into a fist and beat them into the ground.

In my family, I had five siblings. My Dad had one Sister, my Mom was an only child. My Dads Sister also had 5 children giving me 5 cousins. We were all brought up the same, no major differences in up bringing, wealth, or love. But we all had our own personalities and made our own choices, many of those choices were very different.

I have also seen kids growing up have a very good family not do so good. I have also seen kids come from very abusive families turn out very well. But have also seen the opposite happen in both cases. I have not seen much to indicate environment causes either good or bad people. It seems to me it is the choices they make in life.

 

[idea]

No, I do not agree. Environment completely affects a persons life. But being good or evil is your choice.

If someone falls it is your choice to put out your hand and help them up, or ball your hand into a fist and beat them into the ground.

In my family, I had five siblings. My Dad had one Sister, my Mom was an only child. My Dads Sister also had 5 children giving me 5 cousins. We were all brought up the same, no major differences in up bringing, wealth, or love. But we all had our own personalities and made our own choices, many of those choices were very different.

I have also seen kids growing up have a very good family not do so good. I have also seen kids come from very abusive families turn out very well. But have also seen the opposite happen in both cases. I have not seen much to indicate environment causes either good or bad people. It seems to me it is the choices they make in life.

Yes, I have similar family as well as my own children, each unique in what techniques best educate. As a teacher, I find some students learn best through lectures, others in labs, others in study groups, others through books/independent study. The same environment - sat in a forest- "if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”

A fish in the right environment will thrive.
Any person in the right environment will thrive.
One person needs a different environment than another.

A fish and a monkey in the sane environment? It is still the fault of the environment, not the fault of the fish.