Regarding Good and Evil

[leahrachelle]

Believe me, just because something only exists within our minds doesn't make it any less important.

Of course not. I completely agree

 

[leahrachelle]

Sure. What's your definition? What do you feel as being good and evil?

It's not something that's easily describable, you know? Especially when it's simply something you feel. I can't make an accurate definition of it, sorry.

 

[Mister Emu]

1) What are Good and Evil? Definitive? Subjective? Can all acts be put into the catagories of Good or Evil?

Good/right is God's will, evil/wrong is that against God's will... I'd say not all actions can be put into categories of good or evil, there are neutral actions...

3) If Good and Evil are obvious natural instincts that all men should possess then why do I not possess them?

So you don't believe there are any intrinsically "wrong" actions?

 

[methylatedghosts]

So you don't believe there are any intrinsically "wrong" actions?

Just as there are no intrinsically "right" or "good" actions

 

[iloveislam]

Regarding the concepts of 'Good' and 'Evil'... I don't get it. I don't believe that Good and Evil exist.

Question: If I come around your house and steal from you then will you:

a) accept it - and think that was a good thing I did?
b) reject it - and fight with me or call the police?
c) just sit there confused about this issue and let me take away your property comfortably while you search for an answer?

 

[Heneni]

Friend GiantHouseKey,



Those who realise that GOOD and EVIL are just perceptions of the human mind and that means only *THOUGHTS* not reality then there remains nothing as good or evil.

As friend ben mentioned that Tao too has no place for such perceptions and truth only IS which happens when the individual mind is still or devoid of all thoughts or perceptions.

Love & rgds

LOL...zenzero. Our minds are completely useless then, if all it can come up with are illusions.

If the mind is cleared and devoid of all thoughts and perceptions, then the mind might as well not exist. And a mind that is filled with nothing will be ready to be filled with something else. Things are poured into our minds everyday. Must be quite something to open the taps and pour it out everyday. A christian does not allow 'foreign concepts' to enter his mind and remain there to be pondered on. They take every thought captive (as the bible instructs), and evaluate it. Their mind is filled with good things, which also the bible says we should meditate on. So then...I dont think that an empty mind will make us reach some sort of spiritual enlightenment. The mind is an instrument of thought, and with it, it can accomplish many things.

If there is no good and evil in this world, i think that a women who is raped would be wondering if someone is mad to say that what has happened to her is not evil. They would say...It just IS. What she is going through in her mind, the thoughts that she thinks afterwards, the self-loathing and/or the loathing for her rapists...are all just figments of her imagination. She is not to think of the man as evil, she is just to percieve him as 'it'. She is not to scrub herself endlessly in the shower, since she is only imagining the filth that has entered her body.

Hmmm....no there is something wrong with the idea that there is no good and evil. In any event...the very thought of not thinking that there is good and evil, is considered by some to be 'good'. Which contradicts the idea that there is no good and evil.

Heneni

 

[methylatedghosts]

Question: If I come around your house and steal from you then will you:

a) accept it - and think that was a good thing I did?
b) reject it - and fight with me or call the police?
c) just sit there confused about this issue and let me take away your property comfortably while you search for an answer?

I love this answer, especially option C, gave me a good giggle (which in turn caused those around me to look at me a little strangely)

However, I would venture that option B would be my choice. Not because I think it "bad" or "evil" as an intrinsic part of the act, but because I disagree with what you are doing and I would rather keep my stuff. However, there is also the understanding that you would be doing the absolute best you could with your life, with the information you had at hand. (The information you have may not be correct, or at least discolored in some way, but it's information none-the-less) And I cannot fault you for doing what you think must be done for your survival, though I believe you're going about it in a rather inefficient fashion.

Because for you the action may well be considered "good" in that by stealing from me you get the money so that your family may have food for another week. Or perhaps you've come into some large debt to a drug-lord of sorts and by stealing from me it is "good" because you can then repay the debt. For me, I may consider it "bad" because I now have a broken window that needs replacing, my xbox, computer and my tv cost alot of money and I'm going to need to replace all that too. You see, because you believe it's "good", or at least "not bad" to the extent that you'll live another day, and I believe it "bad" because I lose my stuff, we disagree on it's level of "good/bad-ness", so therefore it is neither intrinsically good OR bad. It simply is an action which you happen to agree with, and I happen to disagree with.

 

[Heneni]

I love this answer, especially option C, gave me a good giggle (which in turn caused those around me to look at me a little strangely)

However, I would venture that option B would be my choice. Not because I think it "bad" or "evil" as an intrinsic part of the act, but because I disagree with what you are doing and I would rather keep my stuff. However, there is also the understanding that you would be doing the absolute best you could with your life, with the information you had at hand. (The information you have may not be correct, or at least discolored in some way, but it's information none-the-less) And I cannot fault you for doing what you think must be done for your survival, though I believe you're going about it in a rather inefficient fashion.

Because for you the action may well be considered "good" in that by stealing from me you get the money so that your family may have food for another week. Or perhaps you've come into some large debt to a drug-lord of sorts and by stealing from me it is "good" because you can then repay the debt. For me, I may consider it "bad" because I now have a broken window that needs replacing, my xbox, computer and my tv cost alot of money and I'm going to need to replace all that too. You see, because you believe it's "good", or at least "not bad" to the extent that you'll live another day, and I believe it "bad" because I lose my stuff, we disagree on it's level of "good/bad-ness", so therefore it is neither intrinsically good OR bad. It simply is an action which you happen to agree with, and I happen to disagree with.

Would someone who stole from you then find themselves in front of a judge who says...you think its wrong, the one who stole doesnt. So therefore I think nothing...and you are both free to go.

Heneni

 

[methylatedghosts]

Would someone who stole from you then find themselves in front of a judge who says...you think its wrong, the one who stole doesnt. So therefore I think nothing...and you are both free to go.

Heneni

But you see, that doesn't work either!

The judge's job is to.. well.. sentence people who have broken the law. It would require a law change for this to happen. But many people would label that as a "wrong" thing, because they disagree with it . Clearly the theif breaks the law, and the law must be enforced, and the thief would be punished. Many people would also agree that they disagree with the thief's actions, and that perhaps he should have gone about it in a different way, that didn't cause the victim to lose out.

Our societies are not yet ready to have no need for such laws, and it would be a truly chaotic place if the laws were removed, and I would say it's probably not the best idea.

The law regards not "good" or "evil", but merely those who keep to it and those who break it. The law is by no means any standard by which you can measure the "good"- or "evil"-ness of an action, you only need to search through the varying laws in different cultures to see that.

Edit: (added) the law only states that which people agree and disagree with, and basically say that "We, as a society, on the whole, disagree with your actions as a thief. We will not stand for such actions"

 

[iloveislam]

You see, because you believe it's "good", or at least "not bad" to the extent that you'll live another day, and I believe it "bad" because I lose my stuff, we disagree on it's level of "good/bad-ness", so therefore it is neither intrinsically good OR bad. It simply is an action which you happen to agree with, and I happen to disagree with.

In Islamwe believe that EVERY human being (yes, that also includes those children that are born to non-Muslim families) is born with the intrinsic nature.

This intrinsic nature is that they are all pure and sinless. Thus if they were to grow up and become adults then they would know about the major good and bad - as long as they have not been subjected to environmenal effects, or parental pressure or evil whispers of satan.

In other words every human being knows that killing innocent people is bad, that stealing, cheating and fighting is bad. However since people have made themselves selfish, greedy and desiring to have Fame then they try to justify every acts that they do.

In essence I believe that the pure human nature tells a person that this is good and that is bad.

However - ofcourse there are certian things which we cannot figure out whether they are good or bad - in which case one has to put their faith in God.

For example drinking alcohol may not have been seen as 'bad' to ancient people but now that many negative effects of alcohol have been proven by scientists, doctors and researchers we come to the conclusion that alcohol has more harm than benefits.

Thus if it is harmful then it is also bad.

Consider this: Using drugs such as cocaine is bad.

Does anyone here have doubts as to whether using cocaine is bad?

 

[methylatedghosts]

In Islamwe believe that EVERY human being (yes, that also includes those children that are born to non-Muslim families) is born with the intrinsic nature.

I know that that's what you believe, however it's not all that simple. I would say of course, everyone is born with the nature to agree or disagree with certain things, and thus label them "good" or "bad", but not everyone agrees on exactly what things are "good" or "bad" - because not everone disagrees or agrees with the same actions.

In other words every human being knows that killing innocent people is bad, that stealing, cheating and fighting is bad. However since people have made themselves selfish, greedy and desiring to have Fame then they try to justify every acts that they do.

Is it bad to kill someone so that your country will retain it's independance and freedoms, not to be overridden by a tyrant?
Is it bad to steal something that might give your village the hope and the willingness to press on, in the face of year-long droughts?
Is it bad to cheat border security officials so that you can bring much-needed supplies to people dying of hunger?
Is it bad to fight for your beliefs?

Consider this: Using drugs such as cocaine is bad.

Does anyone here have doubts as to whether using cocaine is bad?

There's more to it than that simple option.

It's not too healthy for your body, not too healthy for your mind. But what if you using cocaine allowed doctors to discover a "miracle cure" for cocaine overdose, or allowed police to discover a way to get rid of cocaine labs forever

Not that I'm suggest that that's a good reason to start using it of course. I'm just trying to point out that there is good and bad to come out of EVERY action.

 

[Heneni]

But you see, that doesn't work either!

The judge's job is to.. well.. sentence people who have broken the law. It would require a law change for this to happen. But many people would label that as a "wrong" thing, because they disagree with it . Clearly the theif breaks the law, and the law must be enforced, and the thief would be punished. Many people would also agree that they disagree with the thief's actions, and that perhaps he should have gone about it in a different way, that didn't cause the victim to lose out.

Our societies are not yet ready to have no need for such laws, and it would be a truly chaotic place if the laws were removed, and I would say it's probably not the best idea.

The law regards not "good" or "evil", but merely those who keep to it and those who break it. The law is by no means any standard by which you can measure the "good"- or "evil"-ness of an action, you only need to search through the varying laws in different cultures to see that.

Edit: (added) the law only states that which people agree and disagree with, and basically say that "We, as a society, on the whole, disagree with your actions as a thief. We will not stand for such actions"

your right is does not work. Because good and evil as prescribed by the laws of the land, is still in opperation. Right and wrong, is associated with good and evil. The goverment (voted in by the people) decide what is good and what is evil. What is right and what is wrong. If the laws are removed, people would still have the desire to do what it is that they want to do. And because of this, the goverments keep their subjects in subjection under the law. If people had no law, by what standard would they live? There would be no standard, because there would be no good and evil. Only 'it'. But 'it' would have to have a standard.

It has always been the case that the more evil rule over the good. In order to obtain power one must love power, and that contradicts the law of christ. With power comes, lust, cunning, evil intent, force, bribary, co-hersion, manipulation. With it also comes jails and weapons and the likes.

Unless the good are in authority there will always be the need for a goverment who keeps their people in subjection, because people, without a goverment are not able to keep themselves under control. And when the good are truly in authority they would give this authority up, since by then, everybody under them would be good as well, and would require no force or co-hersion to do what is in the best interest of all.

Many people shy away from doing what is wrong in the eyes of the law, simply because they are afraid of the punishment that they would incur. If the law was gone, they would not be afraid of punishment and would go ahead and do it anyway. Would that action then be neither good nor evil, because there is no goverment to classify it as such?

Since there is no way of realy knowing what mankind will be like if all laws were to be abolished and they were just free to do whatever their own morality dictates, since this has not happened for a few thousand years..its hard to speculate what they will do. I personally believe that to abolish goverment on this earth, would result in utter mayhem, as everybody who has evil intent (which you say does not exist) would be free to execute that intent without anything stopping them.

Which raises the question...are mankind really intrinsically neither good nor evil, only 'it'.?If they are only 'it', they simply exist, then they will if they are 'let go' will cease to exist completely, by destroying each other, without any feelings of remorse. That is my opinion anyway. But im writing this from a christian perspective.

heneni

 

[methylatedghosts]

your right is does not work. Because good and evil as prescribed by the laws of the land, is still in opperation. Right and wrong, is associated with good and evil. The goverment (voted in by the people) decide what is good and what is evil. What is right and what is wrong. If the laws are removed, people would still have the desire to do what it is that they want to do. And because of this, the goverments keep their subjects in subjection under the law. If people had no law, by what standard would they live? There would be no standard, because there would be no good and evil. Only 'it'. But 'it' would have to have a standard.

It has always been the case that the more evil rule over the good. In order to obtain power one must love power, and that contradicts the law of christ. With power comes, lust, cunning, evil intent, force, bribary, co-hersion, manipulation. With it also comes jails and weapons and the likes.

Unless the good are in authority there will always be the need for a goverment who keeps their people in subjection, because people, without a goverment are not able to keep themselves under control. And when the good are truly in authority they would give this authority up, since by then, everybody under them would be good as well, and would require no force or co-hersion to do what is in the best interest of all.

Many people shy away from doing what is wrong in the eyes of the law, simply because they are afraid of the punishment that they would incur. If the law was gone, they would not be afraid of punishment and would go ahead and do it anyway. Would that action then be neither good nor evil, because there is no goverment to classify it as such?

Since there is no way of realy knowing what mankind will be like if all laws were to be abolished and they were just free to do whatever their own morality dictates, since this has not happened for a few thousand years..its hard to speculate what they will do. I personally believe that to abolish goverment on this earth, would result in utter mayhem, as everybody who has evil intent (which you say does not exist) would be free to execute that intent without anything stopping them.

Which raises the question...are mankind really intrinsically neither good nor evil, only 'it'.?If they are only 'it', they simply exist, then they will if they are 'let go' will cease to exist completely, by destroying each other, without any feelings of remorse. That is my opinion anyway. But im writing this from a christian perspective.

heneni

One objection: that law doesn't describe what is good or evil. It merely describes what the people agree/disagree with (at least, in a perfect world, anyway - perhaps more so, what the government at the time agree/disagree with). I think you'll find it's not the law that labels a convict as "evil", but the judge's own... well... judgement (which, as we all know, isn't necessarily perfect ^_^).

I would suggest that mankind simply do the best they can do with the resources they have. I think that it's always been that way. That's why people do what they do best - which is exactly what they want to do. If people were instilled with the intrinsic knowledge of "xxxx = good" and "yyyy = bad", they'd do "xxxx" all the time.

And besides having labelled the nazi experience as "bad" by much of the world, there was also good to come out of it - treaties, roading networks, new technologies - that can't all be dismissed. (I'm not, here, saying that the holocaust was good, I am just saying that there is still good to come out of what most imagine to be the worst situation, the worst event perhaps to happen on earth).

Good can be found in every thing.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Heneni,

Our minds are completely useless then, if all it can come up with are illusions.

If the mind is cleared and devoid of all thoughts and perceptions, then the mind might as well not exist. And a mind that is filled with nothing will be ready to be filled with something else. Things are poured into our minds everyday. Must be quite something to open the taps and pour it out everyday. A christian does not allow 'foreign concepts' to enter his mind and remain there to be pondered on. They take every thought captive (as the bible instructs), and evaluate it. Their mind is filled with good things, which also the bible says we should meditate on. So then...I dont think that an empty mind will make us reach some sort of spiritual enlightenment. The mind is an instrument of thought, and with it, it can accomplish many things.

If there is no good and evil in this world, i think that a women who is raped would be wondering if someone is mad to say that what has happened to her is not evil. They would say...It just IS. What she is going through in her mind, the thoughts that she thinks afterwards, the self-loathing and/or the loathing for her rapists...are all just figments of her imagination. She is not to think of the man as evil, she is just to percieve him as 'it'. She is not to scrub herself endlessly in the shower, since she is only imagining the filth that has entered her body.

Hmmm....no there is something wrong with the idea that there is no good and evil. In any event...the very thought of not thinking that there is good and evil, is considered by some to be 'good'. Which contradicts the idea that there is no good and evil.

Everyday in nature, one finds there is a balance even after the bigger and powerful eating the smaller and less powerful for survival. They act instinctively without thoughts.
It is only humans that THINKS and because of that man is never in the present but always in the past or future.
Evaluation of good/bad comes in respect of all stored values by individuals and each will have a different value system BUT it is only TRUTH that is one and that truth reflects only when one does not evaluate/differenciate between good/bad.

Love & rgds

 

[iloveislam]

I would say of course, everyone is born with the nature to agree or disagree with certain things, and thus label them "good" or "bad", but not everyone agrees on exactly what things are "good" or "bad" - because not everone disagrees or agrees with the same actions.

I agree with you here.

There are some people in this world who think that they will not die! (sad)

In fact God has made us like that. Had God wanted to, then surely He would have made us like angels; but there is a Wisdom as to why God made us like that. From an Islamic perspective - we say that it is to test us. Since God has provided for us clear guidance (i.e. the Qur'an) then if people pass or fail they test, they will be Judged on the Day of Judgement.

Is it bad to kill someone so that your country will retain it's independance and freedoms, not to be overridden by a tyrant?
Is it bad to steal something that might give your village the hope and the willingness to press on, in the face of year-long droughts?
Is it bad to cheat border security officials so that you can bring much-needed supplies to people dying of hunger?
Is it bad to fight for your beliefs?

What I mentioned in the previous post is general. These questions which you posed are exception to the rule.

In Islam there are general rules - such as don't eat pork; and also specific rules, for example: if someone does not have anything to eat and is starving such that he/she may die then in that case eating pork is allowed.

It's not too healthy for your body, not too healthy for your mind. But what if you using cocaine allowed doctors to discover a "miracle cure" for cocaine overdose, or allowed police to discover a way to get rid of cocaine labs forever. Not that I'm suggest that that's a good reason to start using it of course. I'm just trying to point out that there is good and bad to come out of EVERY action.

Again, the question you have mentioned here is exception to the general rule.

What do you think buddy? (smile)

 

[iloveislam]

Question: If I come around your house and steal from you then will you:

a) accept it - and think that was a good thing I did?
b) reject it - and fight with me or call the police?
c) just sit there confused about this issue and let me take away your property comfortably while you search for an answer?

God has created us for a reason. In other words there is a Wisdom, a Purpose for why we are created and have a thinking ability - unlike the animals who do not have intelligence.

Every human being - White, Black, Old, Young, Man, Woman, Asian, American and etc. - have been blessed with intellect by God.

We are not animals who simply eat, drink, defecate, and sleep.

Allah explains to us what this purpose is in the Qur'an, which is to worship Him Alone.

 

[Mister Emu]

Just as there are no intrinsically "right" or "good" actions

Under what circumstances would you find rape acceptable?

 

[gnomon]

If good and evil exist then those that believe such should be able to list exactly what is good and evil.

 

[no_spoon]

I think C. S. Lewis does a very thorough discussion of the question of good and evil near the beginning of his book "Mere Christianity". I am not saying that it is specifically a "Christian" question, it just happens to have been a portion of his overall discussion of man's nature and God. Many of the objections raised already in this thread are covered in Lewis' analysis, and it would not make sense for me to try to summarize his points and fit them into this thread.

I am NOT saying that everyone must agree with him or that his analysis might not have flaws, only that anyone interested in the question of good and evil should at least read it at some point (or read some material on the Web that summarizes his points).

Personally, I am persuaded by Lewis that evil does exist and we all pretty much know its broad outline. To defend that statement I would need to start quoting, which I said I would not do.

 

[gnomon]

I think C. S. Lewis does a very thorough discussion of the question of good and evil near the beginning of his book "Mere Christianity". I am not saying that it is specifically a "Christian" question, it just happens to have been a portion of his overall discussion of man's nature and God. Many of the objections raised already in this thread are covered in Lewis' analysis, and it would not make sense for me to try to summarize his points and fit them into this thread.

I am NOT saying that everyone must agree with him or that his analysis might not have flaws, only that anyone interested in the question of good and evil should at least read it at some point (or read some material on the Web that summarizes his points).

Personally, I am persuaded by Lewis that evil does exist and we all pretty much know its broad outline. To defend that statement I would need to start quoting, which I said I would not do.

You at least convinced me to check his book out.